[Mike_Cirba]

Riviera is one of my very favorites, but someone please, please, please take that paint brush away from the monkey.

[Michael Robin]

Tom Paul -

Here is a standing offer to come hit those shots. The redan on 4 will allow you to do as you like and the Kikuyu will not stand in the way of that design feature.

Re the bunkering on 10, the remodel strategically affected 2 things:
  1) The left fairway bunker was widened maybe 5 yards to the right narrowing the gap for those trying to drive the green, which is not an issue for the pros who just fly the right edge of that bunker anyway, but does make it harder for the rest of us to try to pull off that shot. Didn't bother Barney the day we played as he hit it 10 feet from the hole.
  2) The back left of the green used to have a backstop that gave a pulled shot a good chance of staying on the green. That has been shaved away and now puts the burden back on the accuracy of the shot. This was a very good change and I believe a restoration to approximately its original form.

[Pete Lavallee]

Here is a standing offer to come hit those shots. The redan on 4 will allow you to do as you like and the Kikuyu will not stand in the way of that design feature.

Michael,

As a So Cal golfer with lots of Kikuyu experience I find it hard to believe that a ball can be bounced of this surface, especially when it's presented in a lush state. Are you saying that balls can easily carrom into the 4th green from the right; even if they are slightly faded? Is this done with a special preperation, or can balls be bounced onto the greens throughout the course?

I also think Riviera is a special place; but it is spite of the Kikuyu and not because of it!

[Kyle Harris]

John, I saw a staffer carrying around a blade that looked like the one below.....not exactly, but same idea.  Looked like he was cleaning up, not doing the entire green.  Wish I would've taken a pic of the slit, but in this one you can kinda see the slit on the right side. 

Same thing works well for Goosegrass and Bull Paspalum.

[Bob_Huntley]

Here is a standing offer to come hit those shots. The redan on 4 will allow you to do as you like and the Kikuyu will not stand in the way of that design feature.

Michael,

As a So Cal golfer with lots of Kikuyu experience I find it hard to believe that a ball can be bounced of this surface, especially when it's presented in a lush state. Are you saying that balls can easily carrom into the 4th green from the right; even if they are slightly faded? Is this done with a special preperation, or can balls be bounced onto the greens throughout the course?

I also think Riviera is a special place; but it is spite of the Kikuyu and not because of it!

Pete,

I think that I may be the only current contributor to GCA that has been a member of Riviera. I do remember that a solid three wood, drawing to the green at No. 4 was doable and was the required shot when I played there in the seventies. I think that the old No. 10 was better than the new.

The photographs reminded me of what a wonderful course I had at my disposal. On a summer evening I would go down the steps from my house to the back tee of No. 12, play along to the 13th cross over to the 9th, play that hole and Nos. 10 and 11 and then go home and have a gin and tonic.

Life was good.

Bob

[Ryan Farrow]

Here is a standing offer to come hit those shots. The redan on 4 will allow you to do as you like and the Kikuyu will not stand in the way of that design feature.

Michael,

As a So Cal golfer with lots of Kikuyu experience I find it hard to believe that a ball can be bounced of this surface, especially when it's presented in a lush state. Are you saying that balls can easily carrom into the 4th green from the right; even if they are slightly faded? Is this done with a special preperation, or can balls be bounced onto the greens throughout the course?

I also think Riviera is a special place; but it is spite of the Kikuyu and not because of it!

If you ever see the green in person, you will then, and only then, realize...........







 ah, nevermind.

 Yes you can bounce golf balls on the green, that is why it is the best par 3 in golf.





And Jim, no the par 3's on the back do not play the same. Not in the least.

[Pete Lavallee]

Bob,  

How appropriate to hear from you; I'm curently staying in the home of an ex Rhodesian Army Officer. I have experienced the full gambit of Kikuyu conditions here in ZA. If starved for water it can play very linksy; with balls easily bounding onto the green, as we experienced at Milnerton in Capetown. Conditions were much lusher at Royal Cape; the turf was springy with a considerable thatch layer, balls could not be bounced onto the green there. There was a bit of kikuyu at the links of Humewood, generally growing in the low points of the considerable hummocks there; but by keeping irrigation to a minimum, it had very links like conditions. Their primary turf is Bermuda; they call it cycondon here and it definetly allows the ball to trundle as it should. But my overall experience is that the low lying Kikuyu will be much lusher than that which is exposed on the surface of hillocks and that it truely difficult to manage for a bouncing ball game.

Torrey Pines had fabulous Kikuyu fairways for the US Open, but that required considerable effort: a full year of water deprivation and spraying along with restricing the carts to cart paths. The saving grace there is that in order to tie in the newly constructed greens there was a collar of rye grass which does allow the ball to bounce.  As JK says "nothing bounces like a ball"; but not necessarily on Kikuyu.

[Michael Robin]

Pete - The ball will bound onto the green with a draw even in lush conditions, and there is a very conscious effort to keep that grass very firm so the hole plays as designed. A fade into the redan will not make the green and will leave you with a precarious chip, which seems right to me as a result for not executing the required shot. Matt Morton the GCS works very hard at trying to keep the design playing as intended despite the Kikuyu. In most places he is very successful, but in some spots it is what it is. I will say that in the winter when the K is dormant and the Santa Ana's blow, the place becomes very fast and firm.

Bob - There is 1 current member, 2 former members, 1 former Asst Pro, several former maintenance crew members and a gentlemen who works in the front office from time to time that participate on this site. I also used to work in the bag room when you were a member and I believe I cleaned your clubs a time or two.

[James Boon]

PF, Many thanks for this great set of pictures and also to everyone else for their comments etc.

I can only really dream of playing this place and as I've found it difficult to get a copy of Geoff Shackelford's book over here in England, these photos and general insight have helped greatly! Seems some debate about if you can or can't run the ball up with a draw from the right on the 4th, which would have been my first question. My other question though is how well does the multiple fairway option on the 8th work? Is there a clear benefit from one fairway over another?

Cheers,

James

[David Ober]

[
As a So Cal golfer with lots of Kikuyu experience I find it hard to believe that a ball can be bounced of this surface, especially when it's presented in a lush state. Are you saying that balls can easily carrom into the 4th green from the right; even if they are slightly faded? Is this done with a special preperation, or can balls be bounced onto the greens throughout the course?

I also think Riviera is a special place; but it is spite of the Kikuyu and not because of it!

I've only had the great pleasure of playing Riviera once (in a scramble!), but I can attest that one can bring the ball in from the right and have it move down to the left and onto the green. I played a 2 hybrid for my shot and it landed to the right of the green and moved right on over to the right center of the green. What an absolutely fantastic hole.

My favorite hole on the golf course is definitely number 10. I could play that hole over and over and over and never get bored.

[TEPaul]

"And, is the concept of a tincture of time and evolution of the new bunkers in play, to somewhat soften what some might find objectionable at this early stage?  Was the whole Merion debate, 'Puffy Wilson', the upholstered look, and the Macdonald Bros work there something of the same thing in terms of the aging process from when folks were intitially upset, and now calmed down a bit?"


RJ:

"Of a tincture of time and evolution?"

What's going on with you, pal; are you channeling Shakespeare or some such?  

No, seriously, I like that analogy of Riviera's bunkers and their (expected?) evolution to those of Merion's (after their bunker project). Personally, I don't mind the bunkers Merion has now after they had the time to allow the grass surrounds to get the way they did. But I say that certainly understanding that the way they look now is a look the famous "White Faces" of Merion never had before in the course's history and during that history they did have at least three other fairly distinct looks!

When we criticized the look of the Merion bunkers originally by calling them "Puffy Wilson" or the "Upholstered" look did we understand what they would look like given the time for the grass to grow the way it did?

I know I sure didn't and I'm pretty confident no one on this website did either. How could they? Were they talking to the project or green committee about what they intended the bunkers to eventually look like? Of course not.

Actually, I had friends on that committee, including the chairman and I sort of doubt even he had a complete visual image of what they'd eventually look like when they had the chance to mature including the grass growing as long as it did.

I think if you showed a closeup of some of Merion's present really grassy bunkers to someone on here who criticized them and told them the bunker was on Royal County Down they'd probably praise it. But if you then told them it was actually on Merion they'd condemn it again. I think some on here just have some emotional investment in criticizing that Merion bunker project and they will never be willing to let that go.  

But again, what they have now is a look they never had before even though it really is about the fourth distinct bunker look in Merion East's history.

[Sam Morrow]

How big is the bunker on the middle of the green on 6? It only looks like it's 6-7 feet wide.

[TEPaul]

RJ:

Regarding all I said in post #35 about the evolution of Merion's bunkers as they are now and what you're implying about Riviera's bunkers, I've got to say there is a way to overcome that uncertainty with future bunker projects. Of course I'm saying all this in retrospect. That way would be to get someone to do a bunch of photoshop alternatives and iterations on potential evolved looks and then just create and maintain to that goal (look).

[David Ober]

Michael Robin,

If I remember correctly, #4 plays ever so slightly downhill. Or maybe it was downwind? All I remember is that it played a bit shorter than it's listed 236 yards the day I played it.

[Mike_Cirba]

Yes, a few of us preferred the look of sand upswept to the top craggy lip as seen below, but they are doing their best to make the new grassy bunkers look more ruggedly natural.

[Adam Clayman]

For those newbies that are interested in learning the finer points of GCA, the above fwy bunker is an example of something I suspect Thomas would never have done. Any newbies want to guess what is so wrong?

Despite very few examples of questionable alterations, Riviera is a great golf course. The epitome of a sum being greater than it's parts. Very appropriate that Merion is being discussed because they are similar in that regard. Chip, have you played here?  

The trees on the left side of 13, off the tee shot, are unnecessarily constricting. Without them, the openness would add tremendously to ones senses, and uncertainty, evident in the very early pictures of the property, spread throughout the tremendous clubhouse.    

[Richard Boult]

Added to http://delicious.com/golfclubatlas/California

[Matt Bosela]

Thanks for the photos.  Some of the changes made are controversial, for sure and perhaps not in line with Thomas' original vision.

But I must say it's still quite a golf course...like many of said, one where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

I'm thinking of doing a complimentary photo thread of this great course closer to tournament time.  I got some great shots while walking the course one night all by my lonesome and also have a lot of shots of the interior of the clubhouse, along with the guest rooms.  Just a cool, cool place.

[Bob_Huntley]

Pete - The ball will bound onto the green with a draw even in lush conditions, and there is a very conscious effort to keep that grass very firm so the hole plays as designed. A fade into the redan will not make the green and will leave you with a precarious chip, which seems right to me as a result for not executing the required shot. Matt Morton the GCS works very hard at trying to keep the design playing as intended despite the Kikuyu. In most places he is very successful, but in some spots it is what it is. I will say that in the winter when the K is dormant and the Santa Ana's blow, the place becomes very fast and firm.

Bob - There is 1 current member, 2 former members, 1 former Asst Pro, several former maintenance crew members and a gentlemen who works in the front office from time to time that participate on this site. I also used to work in the bag room when you were a member and I believe I cleaned your clubs a time or two.

MIchael,

Thanks for the update. Was Mac Hunter still the pro then? I'll IM you later.

Bob

[Peter Ferlicca]

James

On hole number 8, when you step up on the tee the right side looks much more inviting, it makes the second shot a little harder hitting over a small ravine in front of the green, but trying to hit a butter cut down the left side is a much more demanding shot.  I'm pretty sure when they have the pros play here almost all of them hit it down the right side. 

[Kyle Henderson]

There is 1 current member (on GCA).

It's about quality, not quantity. 
Under those terms, GCA is well-represented at Riviera.

Brown-nosedly,
Kyle

[James Boon]

James

On hole number 8, when you step up on the tee the right side looks much more inviting, it makes the second shot a little harder hitting over a small ravine in front of the green, but trying to hit a butter cut down the left side is a much more demanding shot.  I'm pretty sure when they have the pros play here almost all of them hit it down the right side. 

Thanks, the right does look more inviting from the photo, and also the aerial I've just looked at on Google Earth, but from the aerial I'd never realised how bad the little ravine was, but the photo shows it well! In fact the photos of the whole course show it much better than the aerial, so thanks once again for posting them.

Cheers,

James

[Kalen Braley]

Just based on pics and aerials I've seen of the hole, its always seemed to me it would play better and offer more of a dilemma if the trees between the two fairways on 8 were removed.  As it is now, it seems like its just too much of a gamble to go left even if it leaves a slighty shorter approach in.

IIRC - Phil Mickelson likes going left with his baby draw, but he's the only one.

[TEPaul]

Mr. Cirba:

I would like a complete explanation of that photo of yours in Reply #39. What is that pinkish color all about in that sand pit? Does this have anything to do with the Philadelphia Syndrome Society? Have you and Bausch and Harris been sacrificing savages and heathens from the Midwestern region of this continent in that bunker?

[David Stamm]

Here is a standing offer to come hit those shots. The redan on 4 will allow you to do as you like and the Kikuyu will not stand in the way of that design feature.

 
I also think Riviera is a special place; 

I couldn't agree more. Every time I think about my day there it gives me a very pleasant feeling.


Michael, good to see you here. Hope all is well and I hope you're getting some sleep!

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