[Jimbo]

Its official!  Our club just received a letter from Golf Digest describing changes to the "conditioning" category of their course evaluation.  It couldn't have come at a better time.

"  The old definition read:  How would you rate the playing quality of the tees, fairways and greens on the date you last played the course?"
    The new definition reads:  "How firm, fast and rolling were the fairways and how firm yet receptive were the greens on the day you played the course."  "

"Our new definition takes the position that dry, firm turf provides the best condition for playing golf"

"Since our new definition has nothing to do with the color green, it is meant to encourage clubs to forego winter overseeding if possible"

"Note that our definition does not mention rough or bunkers.  Those are hazards in which no golfer should expect optimum lies....golfers, not clubs, should replace or fill divots"

Thank you for taking a stand that has the potential to save a whole lot of money.

I am posting your letter in the Clubhouse.

[Kirk Gill]

An interesting acknowledgement from Golf Digest that they believe that their rankings (and the methods used to determine those rankings) tend to "encourage" clubs to use one particular maintenance meld or another.

Is this, in fact, the case?

[Tommy Williamsen]

An interesting acknowledgement from Golf Digest that they believe that their rankings (and the methods used to determine those rankings) tend to "encourage" clubs to use one particular maintenance meld or another.

Is this, in fact, the case?

Kirk, I have found that GD does have some influence with clubs.  I have yet to rate a course where the pro says, "Boy, the greens are faster than they have been all year and our course is in the best shape it ever has been."  I generally get, "You should have been here last week."  Recently there was a discussion of Laurel Valley's wet conditions.  When I played there this last fall I was promptly told, "You should have been here last week.  The conditions were fast and firm.  It is too bad we just had this downpour."

It will be interesting to see what affect this has.  I suspect that it will be a big learning curve for both the staff and members and that they will not go down without a fight.

[TEPaul]

Good point kirk:

While I (personally) think it's probably a good thing that a magazine like Golf Digest promote firmer and faster playing conditions my new concern is that if clubs take up that call that they certainly understand how to do it correctly or they may run the risk of seriously damaging their courses which would serve to give F & F a bad name with some.

I believe I picked this up from Scott Anderson's speech over here last month. Going from an over-irrigated, over-chemical dependent program to say an organic and dryer program does take real planning and a good deal of transition time and clubs have to know this or they will need to be told or mistakes will happen and problems will occur.

[Matt Vandelac]

How many years has the GCA been saying it will be a dream to one day have brown be the new green?  I think this is great news for golf!  Budgets should come down and the game gets more interesting.  Way to go Ron.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Good point kirk:

While I (personally) think it's probably a good thing that a magazine like Golf Digest promote firmer and faster playing conditions my new concern is that if clubs take up that call that they certainly understand how to do it correctly or they may run the risk of seriously damaging their courses which would serve to give F & F a bad name with some.

I believe I picked this up from Scott Anderson's speech over here last month. Going from an over-irrigated, over-chemical dependent program to say an organic and dryer program does take real planning and a good deal of transition time and clubs have to know this or they will need to be told or mistakes will happen and problems will occur.

Good points.  I think it will be difficult to make a transition between green and brown because of the grasses.  There is such a fine line between brown and dead. 

[Sam Morrow]

Will the average golfer understand this move or will they think the courses are going downhill? Don't forget the vast majority of golfers don't think the way most of us on this site think and we have a tendency to forget that.

[Paul Carey]

Here is a link to a thread on the Whitten letter from late last year.  I think his comments on sand conditions and treating bunkers as hazards is also very interesting.  I think most golfers can understand a bit of brown v. green but it is a long way to go before they understand what the word "hazard" means.

Whitten: “Note that our definition does not mention rough or bunkers.  Those are hazards in which no golfer should expect optimum lies.”


http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37064.msg759354.html#msg759354

[Sean Leary]

Should courses only allow raters only at optimal times of the year then? If a rater plays somewhere in the spring when it has been raining a lot,  and they are true to the definition, then it could get unfairly dinged? 

I just think it is too narrow of a definition, and that it should take into account geography and time of the year etc...

[Sam Morrow]

Should courses only allow raters only at optimal times of the year then? If a rater plays somewhere in the spring when it has been raining a lot,  and they are true to the definition, then it could get unfairly dinged? 

I just think it is too narrow of a definition, and that it should take into account geography and time of the year etc...

I think if the rater or any player knows what they're doing then they can realize that it's the rainy season or other climate related issues like that.

[Bart Bradley]

When I told a friend of this letter last fall, he said "what took them so long"  "we (gca.com) have been saying this for years".

While I agree with the terms of the letter, I also agree with my friend's point...what did take them so long?

Bart

[RJ_Daley]

I'd ask what the worst thing that could happen is, regarding Ron's new directives and criteria.  I understand what Tom is cautioning, in that many clubs just can't go overnight from overwatered, over nurished, and over chemical apps, to a more lean and turf hardening protocol.  Some can't at all due to climate, soil, etc.  Those that have been presenting the lush, soft, over applied look to pander to the raters that have the lush and green mindset, or the Augusta Syndrome, AND want to maintain their ranking order, will probably have to bite it for a while, fall in rankings while they get their maintenance meld in order for the 21rst century of conservation of water, chems, apps etc.   So, the worst thing that could happen is that clubs and courses that have already been practicing the conservationist and turf hardening minimalist approach, that have been much more yellow and brown and were thought to be something less because they were not lush and green, will have a rotation up the ratings, or at least a much more valid second look.

Perhaps Ron is just doing his bit to recognise the new parameters of fiscal constraint and resource rationing.  It certainly is a wnning edict for this GCA.com crowd, and I suspect the GCSAA at the end of the day.  Chem companies and ferts will not be happy... I think.

[JESII]

Good point kirk:

While I (personally) think it's probably a good thing that a magazine like Golf Digest promote firmer and faster playing conditions my new concern is that if clubs take up that call that they certainly understand how to do it correctly or they may run the risk of seriously damaging their courses which would serve to give F & F a bad name with some.

I believe I picked this up from Scott Anderson's speech over here last month. Going from an over-irrigated, over-chemical dependent program to say an organic and dryer program does take real planning and a good deal of transition time and clubs have to know this or they will need to be told or mistakes will happen and problems will occur.

Good points.  I think it will be difficult to make a transition between green and brown because of the grasses.  There is such a fine line between brown and dead. 

Tommy,

I think the line is even finer between green and dead...all the courses in Philly that have died were too green...

[TEPaul]

"There is such a fine line between brown and dead."


TommyW:

While I don't know much about the details of agronomy that does not seem to always be the case. Best example I know of is probably Scott Anderson's own course. Don't forget he's been at a real F&F program on a formerly over-irrigated inland American course for longer than anyone else I'm aware of (about 25 years).

It seems to be all about extending the duration of dormancy (brownish) and obviously extending that dormancy duration period can take a lot of transition time. If a course that's basically used to over-irrigation (and over-chemicaled) goes brown it can check out fast as it has not had that time to develop its natural defenses apparently symptomatic of dormancy (brownish). 

At least that's a general description that's been explained to me.

But my concern is that other clubs may try to get into F&F too quickly by just dialing down their irrigation and/or keeping up with too many chemicals and that could create a fine line been brownish and dead and real fast.

[TEPaul]

TommyW:

Or to put it another way, I'm not too sure what the exact agronomic relationships are between dialing down over-all irrigation usage and going to basically a more organic program too. I think Scott Anderson said generally speaking if a club dialed down their irrigation and kept up with the amount of chemicals they used in their over-irrigated program they could be in for some trouble with that too.

It seems like if you're going to do this you have to do all of it and it's something of a jigsaw puzzle. Then one needs to consider the natural differences in different regions, different soils, weather conditions etc, etc.

All in all I have a lot of respect for these supers and I'm just glad I ain't one----eg too much pressure for me. 

[BCrosby]

In the SE there's is no fine line between brown and dead. One of the virtues of Bermuda is that it is very hard to kill.  You've got to abuse the heck out of it before you get to dead.

Bob

[Tony_Muldoon]

This thread has not followed the course I though it would.  But it seems the best palce to add my comments anyway in the vague hope that Ron Whitten might read it.


Thank you Ron Whitten for your contribution to The Architects of Golf.  My mind still boggles at the amount of work you guys did at a tiem with no internet and no email. I am amazed at how much accurate information you got out there in this seminal work.



End of of sidetrack.

[TEPaul]

"One of the virtues of Bermuda is that it is very hard to kill."


BobC:

You got that right. We used Bermuda on GMGC a couple of decades ago and even though we tried to kill it when we went to strictly bent, it's still pretty hard to do.  

One time I was over at Llanerch with architect Stephen Kay and he spotted some Bermuda next to a bunker and he grabbed the stuff and tried to yank it out, and My Goodness to Gertrude, the runner on that thing was so long he practically had to redo the damn bunker!

[Brent Hutto]

In the SE there's is no fine line between brown and dead. One of the virtues of Bermuda is that it is very hard to kill.  You've got to abuse the heck out of it before you get to dead.

Bob

Which is why winter overseeding at private clubs in the South is, in my extremely humble but correct, such a terrible waste. Both of money and natural resources and of prime transition-season weekends on which the weather is heavenly but overseeded courses are a bare, soggy mess.

[BCrosby]

Tony -

I think we wll agree. It was an incredible labor. There have been threads in the past thanking him for his tireless work on the book. It is an invaluable resource.

Bob

[BCrosby]

Re: Bermuda

There are still patches of common Bermuda from the 1920's at Athens CC that they've been trying to eradicate for 60 years. We should all be so hardy.

Bob

[Dan Herrmann]

Ron used to post here once in a while...  Hopefully he'll see your note of thanks which I completely agree with.

[Tommy Williamsen]

"There is such a fine line between brown and dead."


TommyW:

While I don't know much about the details of agronomy that does not seem to always be the case. Best example I know of is probably Scott Anderson's own course. Don't forget he's been at a real F&F program on a formerly over-irrigated inland American course for longer than anyone else I'm aware of (about 25 years).

It seems to be all about extending the duration of dormancy (brownish) and obviously extending that dormancy duration period can take a lot of transition time. If a course that's basically used to over-irrigation (and over-chemicaled) goes brown it can check out fast as it has not had that time to develop its natural defenses apparently symptomatic of dormancy (brownish). 

At least that's a general description that's been explained to me.

But my concern is that other clubs may try to get into F&F too quickly by just dialing down their irrigation and/or keeping up with too many chemicals and that could create a fine line been brownish and dead and real fast.

Tom, I don't pretend to know the agronomic details of what it takes to go from luch green and soft to brown and firm either.  I only know what supers have told me.  Years ago I played golf up in Ballyliffen Ireland, the year the Glashedy course opened.  While playing the old course the super happened to stop by for a chat. The condition of the course was pretty scratchy and he apologized and decried the ills of "overfertilization."  He indicated that it would be years before the course could return to a more natural state.

I agree that we might see a lot of courses with dead grass before they learn how to keep them off color and alove.

[paul cowley]

Personally I'm pleased that these small steps might allow me to experience once again the conditions of my youth.

For my own part I'm working it Boss....I'm shakin the bush.

[TEPaul]

Don't take me wrong on what I've said on this thread. I think it's wonderful that Golf Digest (Ron Whitten?) has totally endorsed F&F as the new criteria for Golf Digest "conditioning" ranking evaluation.

All I'm trying to say is if and when clubs buy into a F&F program from years of over-irrigation and chemical dependency with their grass they just can't expect the transition to be a total snap because it isn't.

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