Nicklaus on great par 3s

[Mark_Rowlinson]

In a magazine article of 1999 Jack Nicklaus said:

'I think great par-3 holes are the ones that have a fear factor. They are pretty, yet have disaster looming. But also they must be fair.'

He then discussed 16th at CPC, 7th at PBGL and 12th at ANGC

'To sum up, I think you know it's a good par 3 when you stand on the tee and suddenly swallow hard. It's when you gulp, and say, "That's a tough hole!"'

Do you agree?

[Mark Bourgeois]

One man's fear is another man's awe.

[Patrick Glynn]

I think I see his point (having never played Augusta, Pebble or Cypress) but I am not sure about the additional tagline "But also they must be fair"

Some of my personal favorite par 3s are:

RCD 4 - no real Fear Factor but still a great hole
TOC 11 - best par 3 I have played to date
Pacific Dunes 14 - maybe something like Nicklaus is alluding to
PV - 3 & 5

Not sure exactly what makes a great one. Another obvious example would be the Postage Stamp at Troon.

[Jim Nugent]

If Jack feels fear on a hole, how will 99.9% of all other golfers react? 

[Will MacEwen]

Interesting.

I am most familiar with Nicklaus North amongst Jack's courses.  The four par threes are similar - medium long to long, water very much in play, and you pretty much play safe and try to make three.

None of them are really bad holes, but as a mix they are repetitive.  I don't know that you really gulp on the tee so much as shrug your shoulders and aim for the middle of the green or the safe side.

Not sure if it is a good thing when all four par 3s have drop zones.

[Joel_Stewart]

I do agree with him. 

With that said, not every par 3 has to be that way especially on the same course.  There are not many courses that have 4 holes all of which are 3 pars that can inflict such damage.  Shinnecock and Pine Valley come to mind.

[bstark]

    Funny he should talk about fear and fairness. I think #17 at Pawley's Island is one of the most unfair par 3's I have ever played. #13 is right up there as well.  I haven't played it in a while, the green at #17 feels about 10 feet wide, maybe just having a bad day. Does anyone know the actual size of the green?

[Patrick_Mucci]

In a magazine article of 1999 Jack Nicklaus said:

'I think great par-3 holes are the ones that have a fear factor. They are pretty, yet have disaster looming. But also they must be fair.'

He then discussed 16th at CPC, 7th at PBGL and 12th at ANGC

'To sum up, I think you know it's a good par 3 when you stand on the tee and suddenly swallow hard. It's when you gulp, and say, "That's a tough hole!"'

Do you agree?

Mark,

I think that Jack's conflicted.
He seems to contradict himself.

He equates a great par 3 with the fear factor, yet, he equates a great par 3 with fairness.  Then he equates a good par 3 with toughness.

I don't think you can have it all ways.

How fair is a tough par 3 ?
How fair is a par 3 that evokes maximum fear ?
How tough is a fair par 3 ?
How fearful is a fair par 3 ?

Is # 7 at PBGC fair when one, two or three club length winds are at hand ?

How fair is # 16 at CPC when the wind is up ?

How fair is # 12 at ANGC when the wind is swirling ?

How tough is # 7 at PBGC when there's no wind ?

How tough is # 12 at ANGC when there's no wind ?

I don't know that a definition can be all things to all golfers.

Jack may be contexting his remark within the realm of his game, either in his prime or currently.  Certainly that's a benchmark few can relate to.

I think par 3's and all golf holes have different personalities for different levels of golfers.

A good par 3 for a scratch golfer may be a nightmare for a 10 or 20 handicap, and, a good par 3 for a 10 or 20 handicap may be a bland par 3 for a scratch handicap.

I think there's a good measure of relativity involved in determining the quality of a hole in the eyes of the golfer.

I don't think one definition fits all.

[Jim Nugent]

16 at CPC gives you a bailout.  So in that sense, it's "fair".  If you don't want to try the heroic shot, you can take the easier route.  Par is harder, though not impossible. 

Unlike, say, #17 at Sawgrass.  Wonder what Jack thinks of that hole? 

If it's windy at ANGC, can you play #12 easier by laying up, and then pitching over the stream?  Or is the pitch difficult and frightening, too? 

I agree with Patrick's overall point, that one size does not fit all. 

[John Moore II]

I think Jack might say that 17 at TPC might border on unfair. But I can agree with him, I think a great par 3 will likely be a hard hole. Either because of the design on the ground or when factoring in weather conditions.

[Will MacEwen]

I think Jack might say that 17 at TPC might border on unfair. But I can agree with him, I think a great par 3 will likely be a hard hole. Either because of the design on the ground or when factoring in weather conditions.

The problem on most newer courses for par 3s is that hard/challenging = long, and we may see that 3 times in 18 holes.  17 TPC, 12 at Augusta are great 8/9 iron holes. 

[Lloyd_Cole]

Pat is right.
There are no absolutes when we have so many variables, but that is why we can talk about it all night.

[John Moore II]

I think Jack might say that 17 at TPC might border on unfair. But I can agree with him, I think a great par 3 will likely be a hard hole. Either because of the design on the ground or when factoring in weather conditions.

The problem on most newer courses for par 3s is that hard/challenging = long, and we may see that 3 times in 18 holes.  17 TPC, 12 at Augusta are great 8/9 iron holes. 

Well, thats just a simple lack of variety and design interest, etc. You can build interesting, hard, short holes today, it just takes creativity and skill.

[Rich Goodale]

I like the quote.

1.  Let us not forget that fear is relative.  To Jack, "fear" is the possibility of a bogey and in some circumstances even, the possibility of only a par.  To most if not virtually all of us a bogey is just something that happens--nothing to fear.

2.  Fairness is also relative.  To we hackers it is some perceived and denigrated lack of quirk.  We love holes where you can hit a semi-shank and have the ball bounce off a sidewall towards the pin.  Jack is one of the great strategists of golf, and to him fairness probably means that if one has thoroughly analysed the architecture (quirky or otherwise) and the rest of the conditions, and has calculated and then effected the proper swing to optimize the shot, he expects to be rewarded for that skill in planning and execution.

3.  Let us not also forget that when Jack is talking golf, it is golf at the highest level he is talking about.  He neither familiar nor sympathetic with the golf hole where one may have to get up and down from nowhere to salvage a double bogey.

I've always wondered how Nicklaus or Woods or Hogan would play the 2nd at Dornoch in scary-fast and scary-firm conditions in an Open......

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat M,

I think you can have all in a par 3. (Fear, toughness, Fair)

The challenge of, say feathering a 7-9 iron to the right pin at Augusta 12 is similar even if the penalty changes.  If you can hit the target its fair.  If you also have some kind of a bailout, its fair.  If the right side was much shalower or smaller, or if the penalty was more severe, it would be unfair, and even more fearful.  Its a great hole because of how those things balance.

Its fair because the left side of the green offers a bailout and even the prime target is deep enough and wide enough to give you a chance to hit it. Its borderline, which creates the fear.  I think it can be as shallow as it is because the ball is on a tee and the distance is controlled.  If it was a par 4, some folks might be coming from longer distances and/or the rough.

It also creates fear with the hazard in front but has a recoverable hazard in back. If that size target was a peninsula, making it like TPC 17, it wouldn't be fair unless the target was bigger, IMHO.  If the green sloped away, or even too much to the front where a ball might spin back the slope, it would be a lot less fair. 

In some ways, you can measure the fear (and fair) factor by how many people go for the Sunday pin vs. how many don't.  If nearly zero % go for it, its probably not fair, or too fearful.  If everyone goes for it, something is wrong, too.  If about half try it, then you probably have the right balance.

I think Ross said it more succintly than JN or I - a par 3 can be a bit tougher because the ball is on the tee, giving the player a bit of an advantage.

[Dan Boerger]

Interesting viewpoint from Jack - hardly the everyman golfer.

One thing that makes a good par 3 for me is one where I can see the ball land. I never tire of watching a green bound ball make its way -- sure it's a few seconds in time, but it's a great feeling we all can relate to.

[Tim Gavrich]

 

[JWL]

Tim

Nice picture and a perfect one to illustrate what changed in the building of that hole after construction had started.   If you notice the area to the right front of the green that is dry and has some small vegetation, imagine that as part of the green, with a small bunker on the far right side.    The green was designed by Jack to have more depth on the right side, the slice bail out side, and a more demanding section of the green on the left third.   During construction, the Carolina Coastal Commission officer changed his delineation of the wetlands that he had marked with ribbons on the vegetation.  Our bulkhead was designed to fit one foot inside this marking.    The officer changed to include the area on the front right side I referred to above to be in the wetlands, as well as a small 3' notch on the back left side side.   You might have noticed this weird notch in the bulkhead, and that is why it is there.   He simply moved the ribbon from one bush to another, being a total jackass.   Sometimes during construction you run into people that are overcome with a little power and want to show you that they are in charge.   Unfortunately, we had little recourse.   The routing was set, construction was well underway, and any complaint we would have made would have only delayed the project, who knows how long.
So, the finished product is far from what we envisioned, and it is just one of those things that "is what it is" and we had to make the best of a bad situation.
This same officer also narrowed our land bridge which was the tee transition from 12 to 13 and 16 to 17 in the routing, by no less than 12 feet.   There was an old bulkhead that we were told we could build to, but he changed that forcing the situation that presently exists where we had to construct much narrower tees and we were not able to construct 2-way cart path, as originally planned.
I hope this helps to understand how the 13th came to be what it is today.   I too, wish, the target was a larger.  It is a very difficult par three when the wind is up, which it usually is, even with a short iron.

[Will MacEwen]

I think Jack might say that 17 at TPC might border on unfair. But I can agree with him, I think a great par 3 will likely be a hard hole. Either because of the design on the ground or when factoring in weather conditions.

The problem on most newer courses for par 3s is that hard/challenging = long, and we may see that 3 times in 18 holes.  17 TPC, 12 at Augusta are great 8/9 iron holes. 

Well, thats just a simple lack of variety and design interest, etc. You can build interesting, hard, short holes today, it just takes creativity and skill.

Agreed - but the creativity and skill seem to be in short supply...I also think that the public perception of difficulty equates to length, so it is much easier to "sell" long tough par 3s than short ones.

[Will Haskett]

I think Jack might say that 17 at TPC might border on unfair. But I can agree with him, I think a great par 3 will likely be a hard hole. Either because of the design on the ground or when factoring in weather conditions.

The problem on most newer courses for par 3s is that hard/challenging = long, and we may see that 3 times in 18 holes.  17 TPC, 12 at Augusta are great 8/9 iron holes. 

Well, thats just a simple lack of variety and design interest, etc. You can build interesting, hard, short holes today, it just takes creativity and skill.

Agreed - but the creativity and skill seem to be in short supply...I also think that the public perception of difficulty equates to length, so it is much easier to "sell" long tough par 3s than short ones.

I totally agree with this. I am sick of getting to "nice" courses where every par 3 is 185-210 yards long with enough bunkering or water to hurt a bad shot. There is nothing better than a tough 140 yard par 3. You know you have the shot with a short iron, but there is a lot that can go wrong.

I understand that it takes a bit more in the design process, but you could probably (creatively) conserve land usage by adding 1-2 short par 3s to a design. The only par 3s that I remember playing are the fun little ones or the extreme (235 yards+)

[Tommy Williamsen]

It has been a while but 17 at Secession?

[Dan Boerger]

Another thing that should not be left out of this discussion, IMO, is the context of the hole itself. An example of this would be Merion East. The 13th hole there is short, to an intricate and slightly raised green. It's hardly a shot that inspires fear in most golfers -- until you realize you are about to enter the final stretch of very difficult holes. That tee shot on 13 will likely be your last best approach shot for a birdie the rest of that round.

[Jeff_Mingay]

JWL (Jim Lipe, I presume?),

Great story about the realities of golf course development in today's world. Thanks for chiming in with this. This kinda stuff is what makes Golf Club Atlas' discussion group useful.

Which course is this though? Frankly, the hole looks like 13 (is it?) at Long Cove.

Curious,

[JWL]

Jeff
That is the 13th green at Pawley's Plantation.   This course is right at 20 yrs old this year.
Glad to share.  It was an unfortunate situation that I know Jack has been criticized for for years.

[Peter Pallotta]

I like the quote.

1.  Let us not forget that fear is relative.  To Jack, "fear" is the possibility of a bogey and in some circumstances even, the possibility of only a par.  To most if not virtually all of us a bogey is just something that happens--nothing to fear.

2.  Fairness is also relative.  To we hackers it is some perceived and denigrated lack of quirk.  We love holes where you can hit a semi-shank and have the ball bounce off a sidewall towards the pin.  Jack is one of the great strategists of golf, and to him fairness probably means that if one has thoroughly analysed the architecture (quirky or otherwise) and the rest of the conditions, and has calculated and then effected the proper swing to optimize the shot, he expects to be rewarded for that skill in planning and execution.

3.  Let us not also forget that when Jack is talking golf, it is golf at the highest level he is talking about.  He neither familiar nor sympathetic with the golf hole where one may have to get up and down from nowhere to salvage a double bogey.

I've always wondered how Nicklaus or Woods or Hogan would play the 2nd at Dornoch in scary-fast and scary-firm conditions in an Open......

And I in turn like this one. I think we get much too caught up in language sometimes. If JN had also said "risk-reward" and "if playing from the appropriate set of tees" he'd have covered all the bases. He didn't, but I think it's safe to assume that those phrases/ideas are implied, and a given for him, no?

Peter