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Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Eden Course - Let's Do Something About It
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2009, 04:42:46 AM »
The whole idea of a discussion group is to raise debate, collectively there's rarely agreement on anything. I'm interested to know how we will get 1500 people to agree on how to change the Eden especially when 50% may not have even seen the course let alone played it.
Cave Nil Vino

Mark Bourgeois

Re: The Eden Course - Let's Do Something About It
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2009, 08:48:55 AM »
Now now, Mark, the motion will come when no one's at work and the board empty. Be on your ready when Black Rod taps your computer, for we will quickly table the voice vote and move by acclamation.

It's th' mace for the intractable so in line with yer!

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Eden Course - Let's Do Something About It
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2009, 09:08:54 AM »
The whole idea of a discussion group is to raise debate, collectively there's rarely agreement on anything. I'm interested to know how we will get 1500 people to agree on how to change the Eden especially when 50% may not have even seen the course let alone played it.

1499 should be just as effective.
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Rich Goodale

Re: The Eden Course - Let's Do Something About It
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2009, 09:17:54 AM »
As I just posted on the "Donald Steel" thread, if you want to blame anybody for the new Eden, blame the Links Trust, who mandated the basic routing which exists today.  Given the land which was available to him, Steel did a reasonably good job, and he did managed to preserve the 10-12 Colt gems which we are still lucky enough to be able to play today.
Rich,

Are you on drugs?    :P

The work is not reasonable it is bloody awful. To blame the Links Trust is a cop out. An architect takes the glory when things are good so he or sh must take the flak when things are not good.  It is not good architecture no matter how you look at it.

Brian

Of course I am on drugs, Brian!  How else do you think I can bear to read comments such as above?  The new Eden ain't great, but it's far better than no Eden at all and miles ahead of the consistently medicore Jubilee.  I'll be up in St. Andrews next month for a weekend stay and the Eden will be our course of choice.  As somebody said above, you can always skip 14-16 if you are such a purist that making a statement is preferable to playing a few holes of golf, but to me a few holes of golf, medicore as they may be are prefereable to most other things in the world.

Happy New Year!

Rich

PS--"We" at gca.com COULD do something better than Steel did in 1983 (when RTJ was the bees knees of GCAs, let us remember...) but it would be a very testing assignment, given the actual nature of the land which was and is available.  I'll be a willing member of the 1500 if and when we choose to march on Pilmour House or the R&A of whomever.

j-p p

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Eden Course - Let's Do Something About It
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2009, 10:06:15 AM »

Michael
Looking forward to your comments i.e. first what’s wrong then how to correct these problems.
Melvyn 

Melvyn, thank you for holding me accountable for my criticism.  I offer the following thoughts, however random.

As you know restoration is not possible given that the new clubhouse and practice facility occupy land formerly utilized by holes 1,2,17,18.

A good, simple start would be to have the first hole (former 3rd) revert to its original length of 200 yards. Presently, at 326 from the tips, the unique green is now accessible with a simple pitch that too easily finds the correct side of the green, negating the strategic merit of the vertical ridge.  From 200 yards, the player's first shot of the day will likely leave the opportunity to experience the full measure of this magnificent green.  

We could then skip forward to the 10th.  In a thread several years ago Paul Turner challenged the treehouse to identify the new hole among the first 11.  Even I could quickly respond that it's the 10th, where the deep, pushed up, hour-glass shaped green could easily be featured on MTV's I Love The 80's .  Perhaps this would be a good spot to replicate the original 16th green (apparently once near the present 18th) which Tom Doak has specifically mentioned as being "wild."  I believe Tom has a photograph of the 16th which he will hopefully post.  

As for the much maligned 14th, 15th and 16th, I could improve each hole in one day if someone could teach me how to operate a dozer.  Interestingly, I believe Tom McWood once indicated evidence of a hole between the current 13th and Eden Estuary with the tee near the present 13th green and green near the 7th tee.  I'm not smart enough to understand if/how it would fit into the present routing, but it appears this is among the better ground for golf on the entire parcel, particularly if the 7th fairway is any indication.  

There is only one thing worse than the mere presence of the pond at the 14th and that is its placement.  With the exception of Moe Norman, only the foolhardy will attempt to drive the ball along side the pond as the advantage gained is negligible - the green is oriented to receive an approach from there but a 240 yards layup directly at the pond from the tee leaves only 110 yards in.  I'd also wager that "fore" is often heard from the 14th tee given the dangerous proximity of the 15th green left of the 14th's landing area.  The 15th green is vanilla with the four greenside bunkers inconsistent with the Colt holes, where no more than one greenside bunker is typically found.  Again, this could be an alternative location for a replication of the original 16th green.  The 10th and 15th stick out like sore thumbs in comparison to the absolutely stunning crossing one-shotters at 5 and 8 - perhaps my favorate spot in golf.  I trust Doak's opinion of the original 16th, which leads me to support his conclusion on page 33 of The Life and Work of Dr. Alister MacKenzie where he writes:

"Originally, all of its four short holes featured stunning contoured, outlandish greens, just as severe as some of those on The Old Course, if not more so.  (In fact, they're actually more like the famous "Himalayas," the St. Andrews Ladies Putting Green that adjoins the second tee of The Old Course and which MacKenzie admired in Golf Architecture.  What's puzzling about these Eden course greens - today's first,  fifth and 14th (perhaps an incorrect reference, Tom?) is that they are much more severe than anything Colt ever designed, before or after, and quite out of character for him."

Since MacKenzie was present during construction, at most his early philosophy and work enhanced the golf course - some suggest that no less than five of the original greens could be credited to him, and at a minimum it inspired him to the greatness that he later demonstrated as suggested by Tom Doak.  Regardless, one could  argue that to some extent The Eden is a seminal golf course in the history of architecture.  Perhaps a stretch, maybe not.

The containment mounding right of the 16th hole is a stark juxtaposition with the balance of the golf holes at St. Andrews.  To boot, it is clumsily  manufactured.  I also fail to see the merit of the two left hand fairway bunkers from the tee given the presence of the old railway line unless the intent was to save the big hitter who overcooks his draw from the tee.  

Perhaps it was Neil Crafter who first criticized the principal's nose (small caps intended) bunker complex in the 17th fairway, noting that it's a pretty cheap knock-off considering the genuine article is only a stone's throw away at The Old Course's 16th.  

How should these problems be corrected?  I have absolutely no clue beyond the few suggestions above.  That's why I'm a banker, not a golf course architect.  But Justice Potter Stewart's line about pornography applies to poor golf course architecture as well:   "I know it when I see it."

Mike


« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 10:24:11 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Eden Course - Let's Do Something About It
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2009, 10:14:35 AM »
Tom Doak,

Please post your photograph of The Eden Course's original 16th green.

To all,

Please IM me with Paul Turner's e-mail address.

Kindest regards,

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Eden Course - Let's Do Something About It
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2009, 11:54:34 AM »
FYI, gents.
The 16th green (entire site) was rebuilt/reshaped by the Greenkeeping staff last year. Somebody somewhere has realised that that particular corner of the course is just not pukka.

While the rebuld is an improvement, it's still a rubbish hole with the most artlessly-shaped regular perimeter mounding its entire length, rather pointless bunkering and a runway-flat fairway with very little to commend it.

Still better than 14 or 15 though.

FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Eden Course - Let's Do Something About It
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2009, 02:54:36 PM »
Michael Hendren
Perhaps it was Neil Crafter who first criticized the principal's nose (small caps intended) bunker complex in the 17th fairway, noting that it's a pretty cheap knock-off considering the genuine article is only a stone's throw away at The Old Course's 16th. 

Michael
No it wasn't! I haven't played the Eden and am in no position to make comments such as the above one you possibly attributed to me. My interest in the Eden has been in trying to uncover any evidence that Mackenzie may have assisted Colt in its design and construction.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Eden Course - Let's Do Something About It
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2009, 04:55:54 PM »
Neil, please accept my apology for this false attribution.  I reviewed my notes and found Leslie Claytor as the source of that comment.

Mike
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 05:12:45 PM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Eden Course - Let's Do Something About It
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2009, 02:54:32 AM »
No problems Mike!
If I'd seen it I may well have said the same thing.
If you are going to copy the PN just next door, it had better be a good one!
Neil