"Foursome" (alternate shot) competitive experience?

[TEPaul]

Who of you out there have really experienced "Foursome" (alternate shot) tournaments complete with its Rules variations?

I do admit there's a particular reason I posted this thread. It was because of some recent discussion (mostly off-line) of the so-called "card and pencil" mentality. The fact is Americans have never had much, if any, experience with "foursome" (alternate shot) play. Because of this a difference in their outlook on the game (going way back) could be significant.

[Craig Disher]

Tom,
In the months I've lived in the UK the inter-club matches I played were about half foursomes, half 2-ball match play, with an occasional 4-ball. The 4-ball match always generated grumbling with some saying "That's the last time I'll play there." 36-hole friendlies are almost always 2-ball matches followed by PM foursomes.

I have never played a true foursomes match here in the US but at my local club we do play a greensome variant once a year. And no one likes it.

[Bill Gayne]

I've played in alternate shot (scotch foursomes) tournaments twice in Ireland. I'm not sure what you mean by "rules variations" but each man (two man teams) alternated shots until the ball was holed. One player teed off on all the even numbered holes and the other player teed off on all the odd number holes. So prior to beginning the match you would look at the strength of the players in consideration of the holes.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

We play a 36 hole foursome event each fall at my club in Texas.  I think it makes for a very enjoyable day.  Something a little out of the norm.

[TEPaul]

Craig:

With your usual (annual) connection to golf abroad that doesn't surprise me but nevertheless it is impressive to me (for you an American). I think most all American golfers have never experienced real "foursome" (alternate shot) tournament play. Most have probably never even tried the format at all.

It's a complex thing but it's probably pretty safe to say it can and does give one a whole different outlook on the game of golf and to me anyway, the idea of some card and pencil mentality sort of goes out the window, although I sure have had to play a lot of alternate shot golf in both match play AND stroke play.

[Greg Ohlendorf]

Tom,

We've played foursomes a couple of times at my home course. Generally, it's nine holes of an 18 hole or 27 hole event where each nine is a different format. It can be fun when your partner plays a similar game that you do, but players of opposite strengths can make life interesting (ie. a short driver leaving his partner an unusually long second). The one lesson I learned early is that you can't say "I'm sorry" all the time to your partner!! No one wants to put their partner is a bad place.

Greg

[Matt_Davenport]

Tom,
Most recently played this summer in a big Father/Son Event in Myrtle Beach with the second of the three round event being Alternate Shot.  While the rules variation in our case allowed both players to play from the tee, good for our team; however, the pressure of "no safety net" led my father-in-law to fall off the wagon several times over the course of our round.  That single round will influence my father-in-law to never again accept an offer of playing a competitive Alternate Shot round so long as he lives

[Ash Towe]

Our inter club programme has featured 18 holes foursomes in the morning followed by 18 holes singles in the afternoon.

There is quite a bit of strategy involved, especially matching up the strenghts and weaknesses of the respective players with the course layout.

It is also interesting how long you can play without having to execute a particular type of shot.

Also the concept of team play can alter how aggressively or passively you attempt some shots.

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

At my UK Clubs (Aberdour and Dornoch) foresomes are rarely played except in competition.  That being said, there are so many competitions available, both intraclub and Open, I get to play foursomes from 5-20 times per year, both match play and stroke play.  One of the staples of the UK competitive circuit is the interesting concept of "mixed" foursomes which pits couples against couples, usually in 18-hole stroke play events, but most famously in the week-long match play torunament at Worplesdon.  Worplesdon interestingly includes both man and lady professionals along with the amateurs.  Playing a mixed foursomes with your partner is a very good way to assess the stability of your relationship.  Intraclub foursomes tends to be in match play knock-outs played out over the year.  Most single-sex foursomes tournaments are played at stroke play, but there is an ancient (100 years+) one here in West Fife called the Nairn Trophy which is a knockout at scratch for 4-man teams using the "holes up" method of scoring (i.e. you play your match to the 18th, count up the holes up for each team, and the team with a positive holes up count wins the match.  It is easier to play than express.

Mention must be made of the BUDA cup events, each of which has incorporated at least one and ususally two foursomes rounds amongst the 5 played, in line with the Ryder Cup format.  This normally acounts for 2 of the 5-20 foursomes games I play each year.

Finally, to my knoweledge, friendly foursomes match-play as described by Craig, tends to be confined to a small but steady number of traditional clubs such as Littlestone, Deal, Muirfield and Rye.  It is a fantastic game to play if your focus is less on what score you shoot than what camaraderie you can experience and how quickly you can get from the 1st tee back into the 19th hole.

Rich

[Bruce Leland]

We have an annual tournament at my home club where we play an 18 hole Foursome match.  I find it refreshing to play and enjoy the pre-match strategy sessions and player analysis involved.  We play it as match play which takes some of the pencil and card mentality out of the equation.

[Carl Nichols]

We play an annual Ryder Cup style match at my club that pits the older guys against the younger guys, and one of the matches is alternate shot.  I really enjoy it, but can also understand if someone would prefer not to play it during a trip to Scotland if they rarely get over there. 

[Sean Leary]

For 10 years I played in a tournament that was 2 days of alternate shot play only at Diablo CC in the Bay area. Best tournament I ever played in. Roger Maltbie played every year and he was a blast. Very difficult format.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Rich

So two members are playing a match.  One fairway over they notice another member, one of the club's best golfers, playing alone.  He stripes his tee shot, takes the long walk to the ball, kicks it 6 feet sideways.  Takes his stance, stripes it, walks up, kicks the ball, stripes it.  They call over to him, asking what on earth is going on.

"I'm getting ready for the mixed foursomes tournament."

Tom, I've played foursomes at Woking and at Rye, not tournaments but matches. For some reason it always seems to involve several bottles of claret -- is that one of these "Rules variations"?

Mark

[TEPaul]

"One of the staples of the UK competitive circuit is the interesting concept of "mixed" foursomes which pits couples against couples, usually in 18-hole stroke play events,"


Richard:

Mixed alternate shot tournament play I only tried once, with my mother, in a nine hole tournament. Believe me, that was enough!  

But mixed foursome stroke play does remind me of a most interesting story. There is such a famous app century old tournament around here and some years ago some people I've known through golf who were very good played in that tournament and won it. Both were married and had families and apparently never thought of one another other than as competitive golfers but apparently the alternate shot symbiosis of that tournament and that victory was such that on the way home they made a temporary detour to some motel and had a quick bout of rapid and intense sex that had definitely never happened before and apparently never did again.  

[Bart Bradley]

Tom:

Both of my clubs play alternate shot for the parent-child championship...Talk about a new form of torture...perhaps they should have had the "enemy combatants" try it.

Please picture taking your lovely and extremely excited 7 year old son to such a tournament...

Ok, first tee, you stripe one down the middle of the fairway...your feeling good....he proceeds to cold shank the ball sideways into the trees...you find it, chip out and pray for a whiff only to get the full foozle into the fairway bunker...you extract and again pray for little to no contact....mercifully, you eventually reach the green where you lag your putt down to 2 feet...your son, in his excitement, blasts the putt 15 feet past the hole...you lag, he blasts, and so on...Thankfully, these tournaments were generally only 9 holes..(and my son, now 14 can play!)

but yeah, I know about alternate shot...in such cases, it leads to a "calculator and scorecard" mentality  ...very interesting topic.

Bart

[Rich Goodale]

That's an oldie but goodie, Mark.  Thanks for reminding me.  A related one is the great British golfer Henry Cotton giving instructions before the round to his wife Babs as to tactics in a foursomes tournament:

"Whatever you do, Darling, please do not hit the ball in the rough."

On the first hole, Henry is driving and he stripes it down the left, leaving only an 80 yards shot for Babs, from the perfect angle, but a yard or two in the semi.  Babs takes out her trusty 5-wood, Henry wonders what she is doing, but before he can say anything, she aims back towards the tee and smooths the ball to a position about 230 from the green, in the middle of the fairway, saying:

"Please do not hit the ball in the rough either, Darling."

[TEPaul]

As to the Rules variation in Foursome play (covered under Rule 29) most people tend to get confused over whether penalty strokes effect the order of play. They don't.

And I'm sure all of us who've played enough foursome play have made the mistake of missing a short putt and then tapping it in. That's a no-no but sometimes hard to remember not to do in the heat of the moment.

[Rich Goodale]

Bart

My first foursome game (actually a "greensome"--both hit off the tee, take the best shot and alternate from there) was over 50 years ago in a "Father and Son" at my grandparents' club (Winchester, MA), playing with my paternal grandfather, Percy, who had help found the torunament.  We finished 2nd (out of 2) in the "Grandfather-Grandson" flight.  My competitive career has been downhill ever since.

This year, on my instigation, my local club (Aberdour) is holding the first "Adult and Child" Open tournament that I know of in Scotland, using the same format.  Anybody planning to be near Aberdour on July 12 with a son, daughter or even a child bride let me know and I'll get you in.

Tom

That must have been one hell of a foursomes partnership.  In my experience anti-sex rather than sex is the normal and expected consequence of playing mixed foursomes.  Maybe I should be playing in your circles rather than mine......

Rich

[TEPaul]

Richard:

That's a tough one and one never really knows what might potentially happen. One time I was playing in something like The Patterson Cup here (one of GAP's two biggest tournaments) at Lulu. It's individual stroke play and there were groups of four. I was paired with an hilarious guy I'd never met before (but have since gotten to know well). On the first tee he proclaimed he hadn't played competitive golf in a long while and that he was very nervous.

The guy was long and good but his concentration was dreadful. He started to lose it and towards the end of the round he yelled; "I can't take this anymore; I want to have sex." I told him he sure wasn't going to find any sex on the golf course but he said; "I don't like those other two guys but I could have sex with you right now."

Incredibly, I managed to finish really well in that tournament.

[Chris Cupit]

It has been a few years since I played but Baltusrol has a two man invitational that included stroke play foursomes and it is a ton of fun.  Actually the format of the event is neat, especially for an all stroke play event--36 holes the first day with a better ball format in the morning and foursomes in the afternoon.  The second day is combined score of the two players so you get a four "round" total.  Anything under 300 is respectable and anything in the 290 range puts you in the hunt.

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

That reminds me of my old friend Roger who I invited to a 3-man tournament up in Dornoch about 15 years ago.  He brought along a bandit friend from Hoylake who was an ex-County cricketer with one eye (lost the other in a grouse shooting accident) and who was married to a lady-in-waiting to the Queen.  Each of us shot under par (net) and we won the tournament by a record margin.  Unfortunately, our ringer could not make it next year so Roger lost a bit of interest, but did manage to regain it through seducing the ugliest woman in the bar at the Burghfield House Hotel the night before the competition.  He returned to our bothy at 5am and woke us up to proudly show us the whip marks on his back.  Needless to say, we did not successfully defend our trophy.  The next year, Roger's flight north was cancelled and he arrived at the first tee with 15 minutres to spare after an 8-hour taxi ride from the Midlands.  I think he shot 73 gross(Roger was a good player).  I miss hiim.....

Rich

[Lyne Morrison]

Tom - foursomes are a regular part of our golf calendar covering mixed, men's and women's events, including club and state championships. The variations we use include:-

Regular foursomes -- stroke, one ball and alternate shots, tee shots are alternated through the round (split between the odd and even tees). 1/2 aggregate stroke hcp.

Canadian -- stroke, one ball, both players tee off each hole then the ball in the best position is chosen and the other ball is picked up. The player that did not hit the chosen drive must play the second shot and then alternate shots are played to complete the hole. 3/8 of aggregate stroke hcp.

Pinehurst -- Stroke, both players tee off then proceed to play each others ball for their second shot. After the second shot, the pair decide which ball is in the best position and the other ball is picked up. Play then proceeds as per regular foursomes. 3/8 of aggregate stroke hcp.

The thing with regular foursomes is that it may take a while to find your rhythm due to the fact that you are playing just half a game -- and of course you may well find yourself in positions that are different to what you are familiar with. That said it can be a quick game. Canadian has the advantage of both players teeing off while a Pinehurst event can involve some discussion re preferred angle of play etc. and is usually a slower game as a result.

I know of golfers who wont play foursome events for various reasons usually including not wanting to let a partner down, however the general rule is -- no apologising for poor shots.  You can also find yourself with complicated ruling conundrums to sort through.

All up these games can be a lot of fun depending on ones attitude (and form) and are worth having a shot at.

Cheers  -- Lyne

[Sean_A]

I believe Foursomes is traditionally a winter game - a quick way to get four guys round the course in not such great weather.  I play in at least two foursome events each year and generally do quite poorly.  There isn't a tougher format to play other than mixed foursomes!  Rich is right that Worplesdon has a famous foursomes event each year and Burnham runs essentially the same thing, but over the winter.  It is a completely open event where men, women ams and pros compete in any any combination.  With a bit of luck we have made it to the semis of this year's Winter Foursomes at Burnham- a particularly brutal setup as partners are drawn blindly, none of this cozy old time partnership business!  I think there are two golden rules in Foursomes: 1st and foremost, don't get angry at your partner for screwing up - assume he is doing his best! and 2nd, safety first, I have never seen holes unravel as quickly as among handicap players in foursomes - keep your ball in play!  Oh, a third rule is to never apologize for screwing up. 

For the record, I think Greensomes is a much better game in terms of strategy involved and socializing, but I rarely see it played -  a pity really. 

Ciao

[Terry Thornton]

New South Wales GC has a 36 hole trophy event once a year. For those not wishing to participate there is a 18 hole foursomes in conjunction.

My favourite mixed foursomes story: mother and son playing, mother's shot and she is faced with a shot of about 60 yards to lay up short of a creek (too wide for her to carry). She duly pulls out a 4 iron. Son enquires as to the wisdom of hitting a 4 and not a 7 or something safe. Her reply, "Don't worry, I always duff my 4 iron"

[Mark Chaplin]

Rich you are right that foursomes tends to be the preserve of the more traditional clubs. At Deal we jumped into bed with the devil and now allow 3 and 4 ball play on a Tuesday and Thursday after 9.30am. This was a commercial decision as groups of guys away playing golf want to play together as a group. Also who wants to pay full price for "half" a game.

We do have a members fourball competition held annually, this year it's on the 7th February so doesn't attract too much interest!

Most competitions are singles with the odd strokeplay or stableford foursomes, we also have two major foursomes knockout competitions played over long weekends.

Foursomes is the perfect way to walk off the wine and port after lunch. A round in the morning, heavilly fortified by a liquid lunch is rounded off magnificently by 140 minutes of foursomes golf allowing one to safely drive home afterwards!