"Foursome" (alternate shot) competitive experience?

[Mark Pearce]

One of our club's three most prestigious trophies is a foursomes knock-out played over the summer.  We also have a couple of foursomes medal competitions during the season.  Somewhat perversely our only 4bbb knock-out is played over the winter months.

[Mark Chaplin]

Second at Deal - my brother hits fine drive to middle of the short stuff, I dunch wedge into greenside bunker, brother spashes to 4 feet, I miss putt, brother mouths "you w***er", thats foursomes!!

[Philip Gawith]

Tom at Huntercombe all competitive matches played by the club are foursomes - one round in the morning (very, very seldom longer than three hours) followed by boozy lunch and the same again after lunch. This is the format for the vast majority of competitive golf between traditional clubs in the UK.

Additionally, all the competitive tournaments within the club that involve partners are played in the foursomes format.

As Sean points out, it has its origins in the fact that most traditional competitive golf in the UK is played in winter, so getting round quickly is a big deal. The best example (albeit not foursomes) is the Presidents Putter always played in freezing January weather.

I think it is a great way to play golf - and demanding too. If you are off form, it is difficult to get into the groove because gaps between similar shots can be long. But by far the most demanding issue is dealing with your partner - not putting them in trouble, not getting down when you do so, and - above all - never, ever being judgemental.

Re mixed foursomes, it is sometimes affectionately known by husband/wife partners as "divorcesomes"! But your anecdote suggests it works both ways!

As for funny stories: when I still lived in SA the champion club golfer for many years and a celebrated amateur, and humourist, was a man called Reg Taylor. The 11th hole at the River Club is a c 400 yard par 4, with a downhill carry to water of about 300 yards. The second shot was typically a shortish 100-120 yards, but all carry over water, so daunting for many golfers.

One day Reg was playing mixed foursomes and hit a good drive down close to the water. When his partner asked him what she should do, Reg replied "For god's sake....miss it!".

[Sean_A]

Tom at Huntercombe all competitive matches played by the club are foursomes - one round in the morning (very, very seldom longer than three hours) followed by boozy lunch and the same again after lunch. This is the format for the vast majority of competitive golf between traditional clubs in the UK.

Additionally, all the competitive tournaments within the club that involve partners are played in the foursomes format.

As Sean points out, it has its origins in the fact that most traditional competitive golf in the UK is played in winter, so getting round quickly is a big deal. The best example (albeit not foursomes) is the Presidents Putter always played in freezing January weather.

I think it is a great way to play golf - and demanding too. If you are off form, it is difficult to get into the groove because gaps between similar shots can be long. But by far the most demanding issue is dealing with your partner - not putting them in trouble, not getting down when you do so, and - above all - never, ever being judgemental.

Re mixed foursomes, it is sometimes affectionately known by husband/wife partners as "divorcesomes"! But your anecdote suggests it works both ways!

As for funny stories: when I still lived in SA the champion club golfer for many years and a celebrated amateur, and humourist, was a man called Reg Taylor. The 11th hole at the River Club is a c 400 yard par 4, with a downhill carry to water of about 300 yards. The second shot was typically a shortish 100-120 yards, but all carry over water, so daunting for many golfers.

One day Reg was playing mixed foursomes and hit a good drive down close to the water. When his partner asked him what she should do, Reg replied "For god's sake....miss it!".

Philip

I have to back you up that the golf at Huntercombe is quick.  It is no joke that a two ball (foursomes or not) will get round Huntercombe in under 3 hours far more often than not.  Without a doubt Huntercombe is the quickest playing club I have ever come across.  In truth, sometimes its too quick and I have to stand aside in wonderment.  The last time down there ( think in November) we got round in 2.5 hours as two old geezers pushed us to the hilt.  We didn't realize how fast we were going until we had a pint afterwards.  I rarely go back out after 18 holes no matter how good the course, but this time my mate and I just looked at each other and before you knew it we were back on the 1st tee trying to figure out a cut across shorty game to get back before dark.  You are a lucky man Philip for Huntercombe is certainly one of my favourite clubs in the country.  Now if we could get them to cut down the trees!

Ciao

[Tim Bert]

I've been surprised that we don't incorporate this format into the GCA events for one of the rounds.  I know a lot of people want to play their own ball when they go on a golf trip, myself included often times, but I also go with the flow and alternate shot can be a really fun thing.  If there was ever a group of guys to do this on an outing it would be this one.  We often refer to these events as "Ryder Cup type outings" but there's no foursomes.  I'd like to see it included for just one round at the events, even if it is the Friday round or the "secondary" SAturday round.

[Rich Goodale]

Tim

If you read above you will see that we do incorporate and have always incorporated foursomes into the BUDA Cup.  It can be a hard sell to some visiting Americans who rankle at paying full whack for a round in which you only get to hit 1/2 of the shots.

Rich

[Adam Clayman]

There's likely a connection between Americans disdain for alternate shot and their inability to feel their way around a gc with an eye towards gca.  I can find every bad spot on a gc when golfing my own ball and think little of it. But, placing my partner in one of those spots is very disturbing.  The emotional response is a greater adversity to overcome than one caused by any architecture. 

[Andy Troeger]

I've played alternate shot tournaments probably about 15 times. Many were the parent/child variety with varying formats--my father and I did pretty well in the South Bend metro winning a few times.

His club's junior invitational was a one day event where kids could invite a non-member to play similar to the regular events--most years that involved alternate shot. It was always an interesting event because teams shot some awful scores sometimes but occasionally would also get hot and go lights-out. The last two years, playing with both players driving and then picking the best one, the same partner and I shot 87 and 68. The second one was the tournament record I think, including the couple of years where the event was a two-man scramble. I owed it to my partner after the year before where I had the ... (unspeakable golf term left out).

[PCCraig]

The best part of alternate shot is that the round takes no more than 3 hours tops, as so long as the player not teeing off that hole walks to the fairway with the caddies, and the player that tees off essentially just walks to the green.

It was always hands down the best 18 hole loops as a caddy. It is also a lot of fun to play but a lot harder than a best ball type event. Team scores are generally about 6-7 strokes higher than a best ball.

[Bill_McBride]

I have played foursomes at Buda Cup events and that's about it.  Nothing much in the US except when I first moved to Pensacola a bunch of my pals from Virginia and other places came down for an event I called "The Redneck Reunion."  The first day we played "Panhandle Pandemonium," which was 27 holes where you played 9 hole matches with each of the members of your foursome.  The first nine was best ball, the second foursomes, the third two man scramble.  Everybody agreed the foursomes were most stressful and it was the first experience of the format for most of them!

At Muirfield in 2007 I had the pleasure of partnering in a PM foursomes match with Philip Gawaith.  It was great fun watching Philip hammer long tee shots.  We both played second shots from places where we usually don't get to, his from much farther away, mine a lot shorter than usual!  We collapsed at the end to blow a 2 up lead with four to go over James Bennett and Andrew Mitchell, great fun match that ended with us foozling around 18th green to lose one down. 

One last foursomes memory: my wife and  I coming from behind to win a Pinehurst (alternate shot after both drive and both play the partner's drive, pick the one you like and continue alternating, good format) at Alwoodley when she chipped in from behind the green at the long par 4 #17 for birdie!  That was great fun. 

I think U.S. players would enjoy foursomes if they gave it a chance.  Unfortunately too much U.S. golf is scorecard and pencil followed by copious consumption in the grillroom.  Of course most UK foursomes I've played has followed liquid lunches which doesn't hurt!

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom:

Both of my clubs play alternate shot for the parent-child championship...Talk about a new form of torture...perhaps they should have had the "enemy combatants" try it.

Please picture taking your lovely and extremely excited 7 year old son to such a tournament...

Ok, first tee, you stripe one down the middle of the fairway...your feeling good....he proceeds to cold shank the ball sideways into the trees...you find it, chip out and pray for a whiff only to get the full foozle into the fairway bunker...you extract and again pray for little to no contact....mercifully, you eventually reach the green where you lag your putt down to 2 feet...your son, in his excitement, blasts the putt 15 feet past the hole...you lag, he blasts, and so on...Thankfully, these tournaments were generally only 9 holes..(and my son, now 14 can play!)

but yeah, I know about alternate shot...in such cases, it leads to a "calculator and scorecard" mentality  ...very interesting topic.

Bart

Interesting you describe this as torture, Bart.  I've done the same format twice with my son (at age 6 and age 7) and I have to say it was the most pressure I have ever felt playing this game... and I've played competitively off and on for 30+ years.... but also the most FUN.  I absolutely loved it.  Getting to team up with my son at something was just an absolute blast.  And Tiger Woods neither of us was/is.... it went pretty much as you described.  We each just did contribute a hero shot or two, which made the whole thing worthwhile.  He's now 10 and I hope it works into the sports schedule for us to do this again next summer.

As for other foursome play, I have never played in any "official" event (other than those two with my son) but I have always made it a point to include it in outings I've arranged... so I have played quite a bit of it over the years.  I really enjoy it.  There's something about the change to a team mentality that I really like, golf being so individual damn near all the time.

I've always TRIED to get this included in The King's Putter, and a couple times we actually did do it (or a modified version of it - Chapman).  I find it fun.  Sadly most Americans do want to play out their own ball and feel gipped if they cannot.  It's understandable playing a course for the first and perhaps only time.

TH

[Tommy Williamsen]

I grew up playing "foursomes"  It was a way our pro wanted us to learn team work.  It was a true alternate shot.  If I putted out my partner hit the tee shot. 

[Chris Cupit]

I grew up playing "foursomes"  It was a way our pro wanted us to learn team work.  It was a true alternate shot.  If I putted you my partner hit the tee shot. 

Tommy,

I hate to be a nit picker but "true" alternate shot has players alternating teeing off on odd and even holes regardless of who holed out.  In the form you describe a player may intentionally sacrifice a putt in order to have the other player drive off the next tee and that is not what the format is seeking. 

Many people also play a watered down version of alternate shot--a scotch foursome where players don't alternate shots until both players have played each others drives and then they choose a ball to play.  In any event, neither that nor what you describe is "true" foursomes although they are both a fun twist on the format.

[Craig Disher]

I think cost is less a factor in the unpopularity of foursomes in the US than the desire to play all the shots in a round. Carts also make the format a little awkward.

Until recently most of my UK golf has been played at Rye and Littlestone where foursomes are so preferred that pairs will often give up their match if they can play a round of foursomes. I think the camaraderie makes it so popular. There is plenty of time for conversation and with the non-hitting pair moving down the fairway acting as forecaddies the game moves right along. Experiencing failure and redemption with your partner is also a fun part of the game.

At Littlestone, the greens fee for a round of foursomes is about half the singles rate. I thought that was fairly standard at most clubs but apparently not.

At a mixed foursomes match at Littlestone a couple years ago, the man made a good drive on the 2nd about 20 yards short of the ditch crossing the fairway leaving about 160 yards to the green. He told his wife to stand a good  bit away from the ball and miss it on her stroke. He then played their 3rd shot onto the green - clearly a testament to a strong partnership. My wife would have proudly played her shot into the ditch if I even suggested anything like that.

[Tom Huckaby]

Chris - you are very correct in the the definition of "foursomes" - it is exactly as you state.  That "watered down" version is the Chapman I mentioned.  This seems to be a palatable compromise for a lot of golfers in that it does allow one to at least it a tee shot on every hole.  

I agree both are pretty darn fun.  I wish I could play this way more often.

TH

[Doug Wright]

TE,

There's an "Old Toms" vs. "Young Toms" weekend event at our club where the over 50s regularly wax the under 50s. One round of this Ryder Cup style event is foursomes. It's fun and nerve-wracking to play. I also played foursomes with my dad in father-son events and I do recall the format with much fondness as a result.

Last fall in Ireland our 2 ball rounds at Portrush (both Dunluce and Valley) were behind an annual challenge match that pitted a Scottish university alumni team vs. an Irish university alumni team playing foursomes. It was a challenge to keep up with them--they play that game very fast! Next day we show up at Royal County Down for our afternoon round, and we're behind the same fellows continuing their match at RCD!  

[Brent Hutto]

I have to back you up that the golf at Huntercombe is quick.  It is no joke that a two ball (foursomes or not) will get round Huntercombe in under 3 hours far more often than not.  Without a doubt Huntercombe is the quickest playing club I have ever come across.  In truth, sometimes its too quick and I have to stand aside in wonderment.

On my day at Huntercombe I played as a single as my host was unexpectedly away on some business involving chocolate bars, if I'm not mistaken. When I arrived at the first tee a married couple a few years older than myself, accompanied by their dog, had just struck their tee shots. Now here in the States playing as a single behind a married couple is a recipe for a 5-hour round. After they finished I played the first hole then putted for an extra 10 minutes on the green to let them get a start ahead of me.

When I arrived at the second tee they were already departing for the third and I never saw them again during my round, which I believe was a bit under 2-1/2 hours. They didn't seem to be playing alternate shots but their pace would have been excellent even so.  Ahhh, my kind of club. Not to mention the dozen or more dogs I saw that day which is always a plus in my book.

[Kalen Braley]

While its been alluded to several times, I would have to agree that who would want to travel all the way to Scotland or some far away location for a once-only playing and get on the tee for the Dell hole or something like that and not be able to take a crack at it?  Hell yes I'd want to try the shot.

But, foursomes sounds like an absolute blast to play with some local buddies at the home course or any other local course that you've played multiple times and will most certainly play again.

[Bill_McBride]

While its been alluded to several times, I would have to agree that who would want to travel all the way to Scotland or some far away location for a once-only playing and get on the tee for the Dell hole or something like that and not be able to take a crack at it?  Hell yes I'd want to try the shot.

But, foursomes sounds like an absolute blast to play with some local buddies at the home course or any other local course that you've played multiple times and will most certainly play again.

Kalen, many times the foursomes is the afternoon game after a morning of singles or fourballs.  That really mixes things up but at least you do get to play your own ball once around.

Craig mentioned above that the two players who aren't driving on a hole don't go to the tee to watch their partners, they just head from the green directly down the fairway to the landing area and play on.  Foursomes is so much a part of the golf at Muirfield that there are actually well worn paths from the back of each green through the rough out to the side of the fairway nearest the landing area.  Very cool  indeed.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

The main rule differences apply to penalties, for this is nearly always matchplay in Britain - such as loss of hole rather than loss of two strokes. Interestingly, you are allowed to practise a putt after the hole has been won, and you can concede holes without completing them. In social golf this is most useful. At most British clubs there will be foursomes knock outs (same sex and mixed) - sometimes you enter as a pair, on other occasions they may draw you from the hat. It's a very good way to get to know other members.

I enjoy the tactics of foursomes, especially in deciding who takes which tee shot. Obviously you are trying to play to strengths and that becomes particularly important when there is a big handicap difference, especially with a mixed foursomes. The rules can be a little complicated in mixed when, for instance, the stroke index is different for men and women.

Played by competent members it is a quick game, two players leaving the green for the next tee, the other two taking a different route to an appropriate fairway landing point. Two hours is quite feasible on Hunstanton, Royal West Norfolk, Aldeburgh and Royal Worlington, and at the first two no three- or four-ball is allowed, except with advance permission from the Secretary. At other mainly 2-ball courses there is usually a rule that 3- or 4-ball play must give way to 2-ball and that stroke play must give way to match play.

[Kalen Braley]

While its been alluded to several times, I would have to agree that who would want to travel all the way to Scotland or some far away location for a once-only playing and get on the tee for the Dell hole or something like that and not be able to take a crack at it?  Hell yes I'd want to try the shot.

But, foursomes sounds like an absolute blast to play with some local buddies at the home course or any other local course that you've played multiple times and will most certainly play again.

Kalen, many times the foursomes is the afternoon game after a morning of singles or fourballs.  That really mixes things up but at least you do get to play your own ball once around.

Craig mentioned above that the two players who aren't driving on a hole don't go to the tee to watch their partners, they just head from the green directly down the fairway to the landing area and play on.  Foursomes is so much a part of the golf at Muirfield that there are actually well worn paths from the back of each green through the rough out to the side of the fairway nearest the landing area.  Very cool  indeed.

Bill,

If it were packaged as a 36 hole day, then that sounds perfectly fine and a great way to play a quick 2nd round.  I'd just hate to take a once in a lifetime trip somewhere and not even tee it up on the Postage Stamp hole, Road hole, etc, etc.

[Mike McGuire]

The Wisconsin State Golf Association contests its Father Son championship every year in alternate shot. They call it The Pater Filius. Its a good way to do it because both people have to contribute. 

Did good one year.

[D_Malley]

we hold an Alt shot tournament every year at PH on fathers day.  the winning team collects $500, which is put up every year by one of my members.

it does help everyone get home early for fathers day.
if anyone is intersted in playing in the 2009 event just let me know.

also i am interested in how others calculate the team handicaps?

we have used this formula
50% of high hdcp + 20% of the low hdcp, then round off.

[Bob Harris]

Richard:

Mixed alternate shot tournament play I only tried once, with my mother, in a nine hole tournament. Believe me, that was enough!  

But mixed foursome stroke play does remind me of a most interesting story. There is such a famous app century old tournament around here and some years ago some people I've known through golf who were very good played in that tournament and won it. Both were married and had families and apparently never thought of one another other than as competitive golfers but apparently the alternate shot symbiosis of that tournament and that victory was such that on the way home they made a temporary detour to some motel and had a quick bout of rapid and intense sex that had definitely never happened before and apparently never did again.  

Tom,

Are you referring to the Powell Cup?  My wife and I call it the "Divorce Open".  After a couple of less than stellar showings we decided alternate drive/alternate shot was not our best format.  When we saw that the 2008 event was at Chester Valley we decided to give it another try, and we actually won.  The bad news is that we have to play again next year as the event is played at the winning team's club.

[Tom Birkert]

We have a couple of very well established foursomes competition at our club and they are extremely popular. One is open to non Members and one is for Members only.

I think it is a very tough test of golf as you might not have to putt for several holes then face a four footer which you have to make. Strategy really comes into play as well.

The golden rule of foursomes is to never apologise, just move on!