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Ian Andrew

Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« on: January 04, 2009, 03:47:17 PM »
I used to think everything written about Stanley Thompson was true – or at least hoped it was. As I have continued to track down information on Thompson – the more I have begun to question the validity of some of the best stories. You see – Stanley Thompson could spin a tale with the best of them – and didn’t worry about the facts getting in the way of a good story. In fact there are some minor contradictions found in the three post WWII interviews he gave – Liberty, Macleans and The Saturday Evening Post. The fascinating part is how similar some of the interviews are.

My favourite Thompson story has always been the “Legend” of Cleopatra.

From the Saturday Evening Post:
“Jasper’s No. 9 fairway is named Cleopatra because of it’s shape. Thompson took great pride in this anatomical breath-taker until he was playing in a foresome with Sir Harry Thorton, head of the CNR empire. When Harry was about to tee off, saw the form of the fairway, and its topographical embellishments, he quietly blew a gasket.
 
“Mr. Thompson,” he said “we have been friends for many years. I never thought you would have the audacity to do this to the Canadian National.”

Thompson accordingly made some alterations, but the abridged version still aptly bears the name of Cleopatra.


I have included the following photos for historical reference. This is all I have found – so far – and it does not appear to shed any light on the subject.

This is a piece of the renovation plan – which provides little evidence of the reclining woman


Here is a photo from the opening year – which is the only one without a clear view from the collection (incidentally I gave these to Jasper after acquiring them).


Here is a close-up of the green from the CNR collection.


I’m left to wonder about whether the hole did have a sensuous “in recline.” Let’s look at the possible basics of a pose first and see if it lends some light on the possibility. The initial version that I heard was the bunkers were the hair, the green the face and the mounds in front were her breasts.

Here is basic plan of that and the fascinating fact that a face appears in the negative space of the left bunker (exactly like Muckle Mouth Meg at Highlands Links).


Here is the current hole from the tee


The current hole from the back


Today found myself looking at art (Picasso rather than Garfunkle) and a picture stirred some ideas. I always assumed the bunkers were hair but after looking a pose of a reclining women by Piccaso I wondered about the bunkers being “arms.” Was the reclined woman described in the description of Cleopatra was essentially flat on her back? It seemed to work well and I found an excellent example that I choose not to post that made me think that the aiming point for a running approach mimiced the area between the breasts - and was more accurate than the “breasts” themselves.

The image below shows my assumption about the arms


What happened was I started to look at other poses of reclined women until I found one that got me wondering if I wasn’t thinking this through properly. It was when I found Courbet’s wonderful ‘Nude Woman Reclining’


I realized the bunkering could be a single arm in a very classic (hate that word) pose . Stanley was very well read according to his step-daughter (Joyce being his favourite) and I wondered if that interest extended over to art. So why not a more flamboyant pose?

So I got my youngest son to pose and made note that the body does offset the breasts when the single arm is behind the head.


Could this be the reclined position of Cleopatra?


What are your thoughts on this?
Do you think there was a sensual woman created or just a great story?


Joe Hancock

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Re: Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2009, 03:48:57 PM »
YES!

Interesting research. Does your wife know anything about this?

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Ian Andrew

Re: Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2009, 03:53:00 PM »
You know - I knew I was going to take some ribbing about this - but thought I would post it any way.

...and before you clowns ask if I've run out of work due to the winter the answer is yes

...and no I wasn't surfing porn and got sidetracked with golf.

...and yes it did begin with my mention that Jasper has a great set....of par threes ;D



« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 03:55:38 PM by Ian Andrew »

Joe Hancock

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Re: Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2009, 03:56:38 PM »
Hey, I'm just messin'....are Thompson and Muirhead the only guys who took the artistic liberties to this extent? I don't think Mickey Mouse ear bunkers are in the same league, BTW.

Joe

p.s. If only I knew how to photoshop that chick into a VW Microbus...... ;D
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2009, 03:57:19 PM »
Wow... I don't know what to say, Ian  ;)

Though I have to admit, having studied the course both in person and from afar, I've also been suspicious about this particular Thompson story.
jeffmingay.com

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2009, 04:00:38 PM »
Don't worry about Joe, Ian.  Apparently he was surfing golf and got sidetracked with -- nevermind.

One research angle seems to be not in the ground -- although you certainly have clear precedent in Muckle Mouth Meg -- but in whether Thorton really did interpret the hole in that way.

Sorry can't be more helpful.  Does CN have an historian? Who wrote the company history?  Has the company retained its files / maintain an archive?  What about Thorton's family -- do they possess or know whether he kept or donated his papers?

Mark

Mike_Cirba

Re: Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2009, 04:01:32 PM »
Ian,

I've been trying to figure out ways to tie my two great passions together.  

It seems you've succeeded.  ;D

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2009, 04:02:44 PM »
Great stuff Ian.  any thoughs on why "Cleopatra"?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Tyler Kearns

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Re: Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2009, 04:59:46 PM »
Ian,

It appears Stanley was foreshadowing the look of the early NYC punk scene in the original profile view of "Cleopatra", whose mohawk would have definitely flustered Sir Harry Thornton.  :D





It does not seem plausible that Sir Harry Thornton would have been able to decipher Thompson's artistic embellishment while standing on the tee, as the arm behind the head is not visible. However, it does make for a better story.

TK
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 05:01:30 PM by Tyler Kearns »

Yancey_Beamer

Re: Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2009, 05:16:38 PM »
Ian,
Talk to Geoff Cornish.He was there when this hole was built.
The sand was hair. The remainder was a statue created out of soil.
This was changed somewhat after Sir Harry's discovery.
Geoff can elucidate on other things of this sort.

Ian Andrew

Re: Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2009, 05:20:58 PM »
Ian,
Talk to Geoff Cornish.He was there when this hole was built.
The sand was hair. The remainder was a statue created out of soil.
This was changed somewhat after Sir Harry's discovery.
Geoff can elucidate on other things of this sort.


He joined Stanley in the mid thirties - right after he finished school.

I've talked to Geoff on a couple of occasions.

Ian Andrew

Re: Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2009, 05:28:05 PM »
Ian,

It appears Stanley was foreshadowing the look of the early NYC punk scene in the original profile view of "Cleopatra", whose mohawk would have definitely flustered Sir Harry Thornton.  :D


Tyler,

It always struck me convienent that Harry Oaks and Harry Thorton were all dead when he "started" telling stories in the late 40's.

Ian

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2009, 05:29:32 PM »
My recollection of the Cleo moniker (confirmed in the quote) that is was a particular fw feature that got most of the attention.  Something like a V shaped patch of long grass, perhaps?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2009, 05:30:01 PM »
Yancey,

I see Ian beat me to it. Mr. Cornish started working with Thompson at Capilano; almost a decade after Jasper was built.
jeffmingay.com

henrye

Re: Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2009, 06:15:28 PM »
Very interesting issue, Ian.  If you are doing restoration work at Jasper, I'd bet the re-establishment of Cleopatra's form would gather a lot of attention.  What would be interesting, is whether or not the X-rated version makes a better hole.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2009, 03:01:56 PM »
I totally missed this thread over the weekend.

Its posts like this that make GCA.com and absolute joy...as Mike C says, mixing both of our favorite hobbies together is a dream made in heaven.

Ian,

I'm curious, have you found the Jenna Jameson hole yet??

Ian Andrew

Re: Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2009, 04:53:42 PM »
Does CN have an historian?
Who wrote the company history? 
Has the company retained its files / maintain an archive? 

They have archives - but have been very private about most of them. I'm planning to approach them - a friend knows someone very senior who will help.

What about Thompson’s family -- do they possess or know whether he kept or donated his papers?

Everything that was not lost at the move from 33 King St - was lost when Dormie House was repossessed upon Stanley's death and subsequent bankruptcy. The family was forced to move out with quite literally nothing - according to his step-daughter.

henrye

Re: Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2009, 03:53:22 PM »
Ian.  Are you researching or have you been retained at Jasper?

Alan Carter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2009, 11:03:28 PM »
Ian, I'm sure you've been waiting for me to chime in on this one, but I need to get through the the next few days before I can give this question the effort it deserves. 

I don't have all of the answers by any stretch, but I can slide a couple more interesting photos for everyone to see.

I've heard a few different versions of the story and I honestly don't think there is anyone around anymore that can figure out which one is correct.

The best source likely passed away a couple of years ago with Chick Duncan, who was born here around the time the course opened.  His father did some work at the end of construction and lived in the house at the end of the driving range.  I will also chat with Kevin Hogan from the Victoria Golf Club in Edmonton.  His father was around here for a long time.  It might also be interesting to hear what Ron Macleod might know about it.  I'm thinking both of their stories could be conflicting also.  I think I've at least 3 or 4 different takes on it.

Alan

TEPaul

Re: Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2009, 08:38:31 AM »
"It always struck me convienent that Harry Oaks and Harry Thorton were all dead when he "started" telling stories in the late 40's."

Ian:

Would that be Sir Harry Oakes, one of the famous Bay Street Boys of Nassau Bahamas? He was a Canadian. His murder in Nassau in 1943 is one of the most famous murder mysteries extant with implications to the Nazis, the US Mob and even the Duke of Windsor. A number of books were written on the subject. I wonder if any of the investigators considered Stanley Thompson may've done it to silence him over the Cleopatra story?  ;)

Ian Andrew

Re: Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2009, 10:32:19 AM »
Henry

No, I have not been retained to work at Jasper. I wish I was. :)


Alan,

I can't wait to here what those two have to say. What may complicate things is the possibility that Stanley was spinning a yarn. I hope they at least can talk to any evolution that has taken place.


TEPaul,

That's the guy.

Lyne Morrison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2009, 10:24:29 PM »


Ian - that Stanley fellow sounds like a bit of a larrikin but wasn't it Max Behr who said that golf architecture was 'an art of interpretation'?

As an aside this thread reminded me of a time on site when I was looking over some finished grading - for some reason I love this stage of a golf course, the sculptural side that I feel really outlines the flow and movement of the shape before the turf and sand add their own particular texture. I was standing with the shaper when thinking aloud I mentioned that I felt there was something very feminine about a golf course at this stage of the works – he gave me a quizzical look – I began to try to explain, the quizzical look didn’t shift –- I decided to let it go.

Cheers – Lyne

Chris Parker

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Re: Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2009, 09:07:40 AM »
Ian,
I was just doing a little surfing this morning when I should be working and I found a few photos I thought I'd post here.  The first two are paintings of Cleopatra by Artemisia Gentileschi (1597-1653) entitled The Death of Cleopatra and Death of Cleopatra 2, respectively, and the last is a photo of actress Theda Bara in the title role of Cleopatra from the 1917 epic.







After a little more research I realized that the photo above may not actually be of Bara in the role of Cleopatra, but she did play the role in another film.  Here is a photo of her as Cleopatra:

« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 10:34:35 AM by Chris Parker »
"Undulation is the soul of golf." - H.N. Wethered

Ian Andrew

Re: Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2009, 10:52:06 AM »
I thought more about what Jeff mentioned and it lead to this possibility and woke up with a new idea.




Then I went back to the original plan and it dawned on me that there was a similarity to the Westmount plan - where the bunkers were shown as both originals and proposed - the Westmount plan was a renovation plan.

Look at the graphics for the bunkers - what if the two in front were proposed?


Then there was no bunkers - the two front mounds could have been much larger - and the front bunker could have been long rough or a depression. I used the image on GCA and this is what I came up with:

Could this be it?



Did he modify Cleoptra by adding bunkers and lowering the mounds?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 11:25:05 AM by Ian Andrew »

Chris Parker

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Re: Cleopatra – Truth or Fiction
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2009, 12:34:13 PM »
For comparison's sake...

« Last Edit: January 09, 2009, 12:39:30 PM by Chris Parker »
"Undulation is the soul of golf." - H.N. Wethered

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