Did ODG's Draw/Do Collars and/or were upstepped approaches mowed as green?

[Mike_Cirba]

We all know that a substantial amount of greenspace disappeared from a lot of classic courses because of mowing patterns, saving on maintenance, etc., over the years, but was some of simply the fact that the original courses went from fairway to green, or rough to green, without any collars?

Given a 6 foot collar around a green, that in itself could be an instant 4 yard change in front to back measurement of a green between an original drawing and what's on the ground today.   Could this lead us to overestimate the actual amount of greenspace that was lost?

What got me thinking about it is the fact that the Donald Ross drawings for his proposed changes to the course Hugh Wilson designed for Seaview show much bigger greens than exist today, yet nothing in the way of collars.   Then, I see this original picture of the 18th green from pre-Ross in 1914 and see where the green is mowed down into today's fairway, in what today would be mowed as "fringe".

Thoughts??

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

Pretty much nobody draws "collars" because they are too narrow to draw.

But, in the old days, I am not sure that collars were a part of maintenance at some courses.  It seems impossible for a ball rolling to the edge of the green to be resting on the green with rough-height grass immediately adjacent, but the roughs around the greens were not nearly as thick then as now, because of the lack of irrigation.  And some courses definitely had an amount of fairway surrounding the green where it wasn't bunkered.

[Ian Andrew]

Mike:

Pretty much nobody draws "collars" because they are too narrow to draw.

Sorry, I reviewed the original question and changed my post. My bad.

[Mike_Cirba]

I guess the corollary to that question is wondering if the part we see today as the "approach ramp" were mostly mowed at the same level as greens?

Looking at that picture, today the green mowing doesn't start til one is one top of the higher level, but that clearly wasn't the case when the course opened.

In fact, what is today fairway, and a gentle rise up to the green surface appear to have been mowed as green space.

That type of mowing could certainly lead to some interesting putts and hole locations.

[Mike_Cirba]

Looking at the same green today, here's what's being maintained as greenspace;



However, based on looking at that old photo, it seems that the original mowing went out to the edge of the left bunker, out to the mounding on the right, and down into today's fairway below the "step-up" to the green.

Excuse my poor attempt to draw using "Paint".



Ok...that's a bit overdone, but you get the idea.

[Mike_Cirba]

This might better approximate the original greenspace;

[Mike_Cirba]

I recognize that original photo is sort of difficult to see in terms of contour, etc., so with apologies to guests who can't see photos with this new GCA feature, let me try this instead because I don't know how to make my flickr.com photos appear larger here;

[Bradley Anderson]

Mike,

I am pretty certain that the putting green cut was generally carried to the edge of the fill pad, and even draped over the side in some cases. Even false fronts where most likely fairway that was mowed with the same mower that was used to mow the green, simply because of the difficulty in getting other machinery on those slopes - it was just more practical to include it in the putting green cut.

Vardon gave the conditioning of CC of Detroit his highest praise, and I was just reading last night that the height of cut at Country Club of Detroit in 1920 was 3/8's of an inch - approximately where collar cuts are now.

Certainly every club went through a different transition, but when the greens were being cut lower and lower, the outer edges were simply kept at their original height. I would guess that the motorized greensmower had something to do with the transition.

When a greensmower was replaced every five years or so, it was usually relegated to tee mowing. Some clubs might have relegated mowers to collar mowing after their mower inventories grew over time.

[Bradley Anderson]

Mike,
 
This picture from England, illustrates greensmen mowing well outside of the cupable portions of the greens, into areas that would eventually become collar cut and embankment cut - but not until after the development of machinery that would handle those areas without doing damage.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bradley,

Thank you...that is absolutely what I was looking for.

You are also the only one who seems to know what the heck I was asking, but you should probably get some help for that. 

Thanks! 

[TEPaul]

I've never seen "collars" on any green drawings in the old days and I don't believe they were done or used back then anyway. The advent of collars probably had a lot to do with this maintenance factor (problem?) today known as "turning mowers"---eg it's less wear on the grass to not turn mowers on the putting surface. I think that's when collars started to appear on the peripheries of greens. Today some, apparenlty including the USGA for major tournaments seems to be recommending double collars.

The very same thing seems to have been the evolution of the "first cut" on fairways (if maintenance goes to the old up and back fairway cut there seems to be no real reason for a "first cut" on fairways.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bradley,

This would also sort of explain the mowing of the mounds along the original 12th green at Garden City being mowed as greenspace, as well.

Would today's lower mowing heights preclude mowing some of the more abrupt classic features that used to be cut the same as greens today?