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TEPaul

Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« on: January 03, 2009, 11:08:49 AM »
The very idea of a golf course designed and built only for women complete with its own club just for women seems very strange today albeit somehow impressive that such a thing was not just thought of but actually done long ago.

I suppose Marion Hollins's famous Womens National GC built back around 1922 was the most notable example.

Was such a thing a good thing in your opinion or did it just bespeak an age of unacceptable separation of the sexes?

What were other examples of a course or club like Marion Hollins's Womans National?

I should remind all that George Crump actually said when he finished Pine Valley (which of course we all know he did not live long enough to do) his next project was to build a course right next to it just for woman. It is recorded that he had already interviewed and consulted with three time US Amateur champion Alexa Stirling for ideas on it and he had bought additional land at Pine Valley for this very purpose.

It's probably coincidental that Alexa Stirling was the golfer Marion Hollins chose as well to basically create her own "distance barometer" for her Womans National design.

TEPaul

Re: Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2009, 11:15:38 AM »
I guess I should also remind all that the very nature of the "teeing ground" in golf, including in the Rules of Golf may've had a lot to do with this. I need to do some additional research but it was not until the early 1890s that the Rules of Golf FIRST provided for separate teeing areas (formerly restricted to a number of "club lengths" away from the last cup) and it seems like it was much later still before clubs and architects began to even consider separate tees for women. I'll never forget how surprised I was when Ron Prichard mentioned this to me a number of years ago.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2009, 11:17:31 AM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2009, 11:29:02 AM »
Tom,

Ladies Golf Club of Toronto -- founded in 1924 -- still exists. The club claims to be the only remaining golf club, in North America, founded by women for women.

"Toronto Ladies" was founded by Ada Mackenzie -- "The First Lady of Canadian Golf"; and, the course was originally designed by none other than, Stanley Thompson. Play on the course began in 1926.

Ada Mackenzie's bio., taken from the club's web site, is interesting.

Ada Mackenzie (1891 - 1973)
The First Lady of Canadian Golf, Ada Mackenzie was the driving force behind the founding of Ladies' Golf Club of Toronto. Born in Toronto in 1891, she began playing golf at the age of 10, encouraged by her parents who both loved the game. At 27, Ada captured the first of her four Canadian "Open" Amateur Championships and her six Canadian "Closed" Amateur Championships. She won several Toronto Golf Club ladies' championships and was soon acknowledged as one of the best female golfers in North America and England.  In 1938 she won every major golf championship in Canada and was named female athlete of the year by the Canadian Press. Ada continued to play well into her senior years, winning eight Canadian Ladies' Senior's Golf Association Championships and the Ontario Seniors titles. She played her last competitive game in 1969 at the age of 78. Ada Mackenzie was inducted into the Canadian Sports Hall of Fame in 1955.
jeffmingay.com

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2009, 12:27:05 PM »
Courses for Ladies, was a good idea in the late 19th & early 20th Century, although I would not advocate them today. If we are deemed as equals (my wife is certainly more than equal in every respects) then as with race and religion there should be no favouritism. Naked under the Sun & Moon we are all equal, only those who aspire to be Gods think otherwise.

Tom for one thing dress code for the Ladies of the late 19th Century was, lets be honest not really geared for golf, so my understanding is that Golf for Ladies was limited to putting. St Andrews has two areas where this was practiced. Initially Old Tom formed a short putting course on Pilmour Links (approx. at the end of the Rusack Hotel heading down part towards the Old Course Hotel, however objection came in and court action was required to stop this facility with it I believe either going or being threatened to go to the House of Lords for final adjudicationin the late 1880's. The other area was the putting green near the West Sands/Swilken Burn. Please note photo of putting green and the clothes.



Old Tom also designed a special course for St Leonards Girl School in St Andrews in 1893, some four years before working on the Ladies or Duffers (beginners or learners) Course which we know known as the Jubilee. Another one he modified in 1894/5 was the Barnhill course at Broughty Ferry Ladies Course at Dundee. There were many courses for the Ladies in Scotland and quite rightly so.

We, that is, us with the kilts have always known a woman’s place  - which is right beside her man. Today we are graced with the pleasure and enjoyment of their company (so my wife tells me) on the same courses.  Some may not agree, but they are the poorer for their discrimination.     

Don’t know what its like in North America but last Christmas I received out of the blue a telephone call from Royal Quebec telling me that Elizabeth (Old Tom’s daughter) with her husband James Hunter were behind the setting up of the club in 1875, so Girl power was around 134 years ago.

Melvyn


Norbert P

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Re: Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2009, 12:28:23 PM »
 Wirral in Cheshire, England was designed specifically for women.

A welcome is presented at . . .

   http://www.wirral-ladies-golf-club.co.uk/


Hopefully Mark Rowlinson will chime in on this one.
As I remember it, he spoke highly of it.



Taken from their website . . .

History of Wirral Ladies Golf Club

"By the end of the 19th Century, golf was becoming a popular pastime for gentlemen, but ladies were forbidden to join clubs. The Golf Magazine of 1891, however, thought the game desirable for women, 'combining a sufficient amount of exercise with the gracefulness of deportment which every true woman is properly proud of possessing'. Perhaps it was this notion that inspired the female family members of the Royal Liverpool Golf Club in 1894, to pressurise their men folk into putting up the money to lease a piece of common land on Oxton Heath. This was the beginning of Wirral Ladies' Golf Club, one of several to be founded at this time and yet one of a mere handful to have survived. The Birkenhead Advertiser of February 1894 reported that 'no longer were the sterner sex going to have it all their own way at the putting game, for Wirral Ladies' Golf Club now have their own links prepared for their own special behoof'. By 1907 the original 9-hole course had become a full 18 holes, thanks to the purchase of more land on the Heath.

Certainly, Wirral Ladies' is special, and it now holds a unique position in the golfing world of the Wirral. It is the only course to be designed especially for women, and the only club whose executive are largely female. In the original constitution, gentlemen were always permitted 'as associate members', a situation which continued until 1952 when they were granted equal standing by a change in the Articles of Association. Nowadays, the men's and women's membership is almost equally divided and a new management structure means that men are well represented on all committees. The captain of the Club, however, is always a lady member, as decreed by the constitution of 1894.

Wirral Ladies' is a vibrant Club with an historic past and an exciting 'present'. It provides an excellent opportunity for women of all ages and from all backgrounds to participate in the game of golf. The relative short course of just under 5000 yards, means that a round is possible in under three hours, an important consideration for women with a busy lifestyle. The Club has always encouraged its Business Ladies and provides alternative days and times for almost every competition. The opportunity to play at weekends with few restrictions makes it very attractive for women who work. As well as monthly medal and Stableford competitions, all ladies, whether working or not, compete for a host of other cups and trophies, many of which have been presented by or in memory of those pioneering women who form part of the Club's history. There are also many opportunities for mixed competition, some formal but others simply friendly get-togethers, often followed by supper. Juniors, both boys and girls, are encouraged and the course provides a good introduction to the game, and yet one which provides challenge for budding golfers. Current junior members of the Club are competing in competitions at county and national level. Wirral Ladies' is a friendly club with a family atmosphere. "


("...have their own links prepared for their own special behoof' ")  I had to look up the definition of the word "behoof". It seemed a bit . . . hmmm.. comedicly disrespectful, until I was edumacated.





  
« Last Edit: January 03, 2009, 12:42:53 PM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Bill_McBride

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Re: Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2009, 12:40:27 PM »
Wirral in Cheshire, England was designed specifically for women.

A welcome is presented at . . .

   http://www.wirral-ladies-golf-club.co.uk/


Hopefully Mark Rowlinson will chime in on this one.
As I remember it, he spoke highly of it.

The men were most likely playing at Hoylake and Wallasey at the same time the ladies were enjoying Wirral Ladies Golf Club.  There is some really good golf on that Wirral peninsula, scene of the 2006 Buda Cup.

Carl Nichols

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Re: Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2009, 12:43:32 PM »
Tom:
Are you referring to the National Women's Country Club, which ultimately became Bethesda Country Club, my home course?  Either way, I've quoted below the history of the club that is posted on our website:

* * * * *

The Montgomery Country Club purchased the original farmland on the site in 1913.  The farmhouse on the plot was converted to serve as the clubhouse.  As there was no road leading to the new Montgomery Club, a trolley operated by the Washington and Great Falls Railway and Power Company, carried members to the club.  The trolley tracks followed the path that is now the route of Bradley Boulevard.

In 1929 Montgomery Country Club was converted into the National Women’s Country Club, a flourishing and nationally acclaimed club.  The membership included first ladies, social leaders, and dignitaries from across the country.  In order to commemorate great women members from 55 countries, fifty-five Dutch elms were planted on the border of the International Memorial Lane, the road to the club.  Those trees that survived the plague of Dutch elm disease still stand and are accompanied by stands of maple trees.

The nine-hole golf course was the main attraction of the women at the National Women’s Country Club.  As a result, it was common for private planes to fly into the club for nine holes and lunch.  The present practice range used to serve as the landing area for the planes.

In June of 1934, the Washington Post stated that “men are experiencing the women’s revenge; women have a club of their own now – one of the finest nine-hole courses in the country.”

The property became public in 1936, but reverted back to a private club when the site was leased by E.G. Adams to form the Bradley Hills Country Club.

After the war ended in 1945, the Washington Aviation Country Club with the added attraction of a casino was established.  Local residents in the area protested the plans to have private planes operating on club grounds.

Two years later, in 1947, the Bethesda Country Club Corporation purchased the site, and Bethesda Country Club, 7601 Bradley Boulevard joined the ranks of other prestigious clubs in the Washington-Metro area.

In 1949, an additional nine-holes were added to BCC, making it an eighteen-hole course.  Twelve years later, in 1961, the golf course went through a major realignment and improvement when the state of Maryland took 13 acres to build interstate 270 and the Capital Beltway.  A general renovation occurred and facilities were improved and a new clubhouse replaced the original farmhouse structure.  A swimming pool was added and a new tennis house accompanied by new tennis courts was added.  Refinements were added to the golf course with the inclusion of 500 pines and shrubs and the lake at hole 17 were constructed.  In 1986, a major addition to the clubhouse was added.

In 1988 BCC hosted the First Greater Washington Open and in 1990, the Mazda LPGA held its first one million-dollar event at Bethesda.  For the next three years, the Mazda LPGA hosted impressive championships at BCC and brought international press coverage and national television coverage on NBC.

In 1992, the golf course underwent a complete renovation with a four-phase construction program under the direction of golf course architect, Arthur Hills.  The four-year construction period resulted in new tees, bunkers, practice areas, cart paths, greens, an enlarged lake and new irrigation system.

In 1997 the clubhouse again was totally renovated and expanded to almost double its size. Bethesda Country Club now has state-of-the-art technology keeping its wonderful, traditional golf course in incredible shape and a new, expansive clubhouse with so much attention to detail that it is nearly impossible to find something that could have been done better. Everything from the exquisite ceramic tile in the locker rooms, to the rich wood lockers to the hardwood décor of the club grill has been built with painstaking detail. Bethesda Country Club is recognized as one of the esteemed country clubs of the area and of the country.

At the 50-year mark, BCC has ten tennis courts, swimming pools and a championship 18-hole golf course and continues to be a family oriented, friendly and progressive establishment.

James Boon

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Re: Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2009, 12:47:22 PM »
I have no personal experience of either but I know of Ladies clubs at Sunningdale and Formby, both over 100 years old. Further info on their websites:
http://www.sunningdaleladies.co.uk/SUNNINGDALE/index.html
http://www.formbyladiesgolfclub.co.uk/index.php
I'm sure back then a lot of women had real trouble getting to play golf, so setting up their own clubs must have been a good thing back then.

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell (Notts), Brora, Aberdovey, Royal St Davids, Woodhall Spa, Broadstone, Parkstone, Cleeve, Painswick, Minchinhampton, Hoylake

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Ed Oden

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Re: Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2009, 01:24:25 PM »
I know that Morris County was founded and run by women.  I seem to recall hearing somewhere that it was the first such club to be a member of the USGA.  I don't know (perhaps someone else does) whether or not Seth Raynor designed the course specifically for women. 

Ed

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2009, 02:04:14 PM »
I have some experience of all three English Ladies' clubs. They are all delightful and a pleasure to play.

Wirral Ladies, as I understand it, was formed by (male) members of Royal Liverpool who wanted somewhere for their wives to play. What I like (in addition to the lovely ethos of the club, the great-value food and the genuinely warm welcome given to visitors) is the way that the course is not overpowering for those who don't drive the ball farther than 150 yards (and many women qualify) yet is not easily overpowered by longer hitters. The greens (mostly small) are deliciously defended and to miss one can result in much egg on face. Yet, I think it was Peter Alliss who pointed out that the main difference between professional ladies' golf and professional men's was not in driving distance or long iron play, but in the lack of control ladies showed in the short game compared to the men, whom he suggested played even the softest shot with far greater energy. It wasn't meant as a sexist remark, merely an observation, and I think he has a point. The short game has to be absolutely spot on at Wirral Ladies'. Anyone want to meet me there for a round later in the year? I'd love an excuse to return (with camera) - you can't just walk around the grounds: there are security guards on the course to ensure the safety of the ladies. What a dismal advertisement for our age!

MargaretC

Re: Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2009, 03:13:02 PM »
The very idea of a golf course designed and built only for women complete with its own club just for women seems very strange today albeit somehow impressive that such a thing was not just thought of but actually done long ago...

...Was such a thing a good thing in your opinion or did it just bespeak an age of unacceptable separation of the sexes?


Tom:

Actually, I think it's amazing and wonderful that such courses were built given the social norms of those times. 

Meg

DBE

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Re: Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2009, 03:51:49 PM »
While this doesn't exactly hit the thread squarely, the Women's Annex at SFGC is a separate and autonomous membership from the men's.

Mark Pearce

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Re: Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2009, 04:10:11 PM »
I believe that what is now Rickmansworth Golf Course (a public course in Hertfordshire) was built as the Ladies Course for Moor Park GC.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

TEPaul

Re: Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2009, 05:07:01 PM »
Thanks fellows, for the information on other courses and clubs that were done just for women or by women. The only one I've heard of and always been aware of was Marion Hollins's Womans National GC on Long Island (presently the Glen Head GC). The plight of that club and what happened to it (the club that is) around WW2 is still something of a sore point with some on Long Island.

My God, you should've seen the fairly instant membership rolls on that club---it was all the wifes and female families of the richest and most powerful people around New York at that time. It was a virtual "Who's Who" list and Marion got it subscribed up right out of the box.

I just finished reading a biography of Marion Hollins and even if I've always known the better known facts and stories of her life and career I did not know that when she created it (around 1923-4) she was already very bi-coastal and really was not spending much time with it just after it opened (she was apparently a resident of California at this time).


"Tom:
Actually, I think it's amazing and wonderful that such courses were built given the social norms of those times. 
Meg"


Meg:

I think was wonderful too but perhaps the reason they were done in that early era is precisely BECAUSE of the social norms of those times. Apparently, when that kind of exclusion of women at clubs began to lighten up it just wasn't so necessary to do courses just for women.

On the other hand, I have always been impressed by how very early and how dedicatedly women got into competing and on a high level. In other words, the US Amateur for women couldn't have been more than a year or two behind the first men's US Amateur, if that. And that small band of early competitive woman amateurs got a lot of press too, that's for sure.

It's a most interesting dynamic, all the way around----historically and otherwise!  ;)


JeffM:

I certainly have heard a lot about Ada Mackenzie. I was reading about her this fall when I went to Royal Montreal GC for the Lesley Cup.

TEPaul

Re: Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2009, 05:10:10 PM »
Actually, now that I think about it Shinnecock had something of a women's course very early on right there on the property. It was certainly not a separate club but it was dedicated just to women. I don't think it lasted very long, however.

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2009, 05:11:52 PM »
As one who is against separation in all (or most) facets of life, in principle I don't like them any more or less than men-only clubs. But considering the fact that most gender-neutral clubs are de-facto men's clubs, I think it is/was a reasonable response.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

MargaretC

Re: Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2009, 06:29:55 PM »

Meg:

I think was wonderful too but perhaps the reason they were done in that early era is precisely BECAUSE of the social norms of those times. Apparently, when that kind of exclusion of women at clubs began to lighten up it just wasn't so necessary to do courses just for women.

On the other hand, I have always been impressed by how very early and how dedicatedly women got into competing and on a high level. In other words, the US Amateur for women couldn't have been more than a year or two behind the first men's US Amateur, if that. And that small band of early competitive woman amateurs got a lot of press too, that's for sure.

It's a most interesting dynamic, all the way around----historically and otherwise!  ;)


Tom:

When good things happen, I prefer to focus on the good outcome -- even if the good arises from something I may consider "less good," it's still a good outcome.  My 40-year-old-self can't imagine living 100 years ago.  Regardless of their motivation, kudos to the men who invested in these clubs because, as you've pointed-out, a segment of women quickly embraced the sport and excelled to the extent that the USGA established the Women's Amateur.  By any measure, that's great!   :)

Meg


Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2009, 06:39:28 PM »
I was going to mention Bethesda CC as well.  Formby has an inner course designed with women in mind as I believe the #1 course at Medinah.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

TEPaul

Re: Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2009, 06:44:28 PM »
Meg:

Maybe so but I was sort of hoping you'd be willing to go around to all the clubs your aware of and tell all the men if women don't get immediate equal status in every single conceivable way you will see to it that courses just for women will be built all over America with the thought of driving the others out of business. And when that happens and the men come begging to play those women's courses you all can tell them to go to the back of the line and shut the hell up. Or if you're feeling extra generous maybe you can tell them to go home, clean the house and get dinner ready and you'll consider letting them play that day around 6:47pm. Then tell 'em if they're late for dinner they can find it in the trash and put it in the microwave and eat alone while you watch water polo on the wide screen while having a raft of pina collisions.

IF, for whatever their petty little reasons they ask you in exasperation what the tar is going on, you can tell them to take it all up with Marion Hollins. Have you ever seen a picture of Marion Hollins, Meg, or read anything about her? I guarantee you if the guys gave her too much sass she had what it takes to knock their socks off!
« Last Edit: January 03, 2009, 06:51:05 PM by TEPaul »

MargaretC

Re: Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2009, 07:21:07 PM »
Meg:

Maybe so but I was sort of hoping you'd be willing to go around to all the clubs your aware of and tell all the men if women don't get immediate equal status in every single conceivable way you will see to it that courses just for women will be built all over America with the thought of driving the others out of business. And when that happens and the men come begging to play those women's courses you all can tell them to go to the back of the line and shut the hell up. Or if you're feeling extra generous maybe you can tell them to go home, clean the house and get dinner ready and you'll consider letting them play that day around 6:47pm. Then tell 'em if they're late for dinner they can find it in the trash and put it in the microwave and eat alone while you watch water polo on the wide screen while having a raft of pina collisions.

Tom:

It's January 3rd, 2009 and I'm really, really trying to lead with my softer side and give the "Helen Reddy hear me roar" side a rest.   ::) 

Meg   :-*

TEPaul

Re: Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2009, 08:12:55 PM »
That's a pretty danged good and funny response Megerino! OK, fine, I'll leave you alone on the subject for a few months, but let me tell you I'm old and I've been around and generally speaking, particularly looking back, I have found it's usually never too early to begin the revolution----or at least the fomenting of the revolution.

Or you can bank on that coony old Civil War general who said: "Victory generally goes to the one who gets thar firstest with the mostest who doesn't tell the other guy why he came!"

Rich Goodale

Re: Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2009, 02:15:50 AM »
Dornoch had a separate Ladies Course from 1899-1941.  The first course was only 12 holes and the opening tee shot was made by Mrs. Andrew Carnegie.  The course was extended to 18 holes in 1906, and was 3520 yards long.  A new Ladies Course was built in 1923 in the same general area (the lower links) and it stretched to 5505 yards, which would have been a very demanding test in those days.  Holes ranged from 103 to 505 yards.  A few of the holes were on tidal land, which meant that water hazards appeared and disappeared over the course of the day.

The ladies had a separate clubhouse (near the site of the current 16th tee on the Struie Coursse).  Interestingly, at that time of the 450 or so members of the Club, 35-40% were ladies.  One of these was Joyce Wethered, possibly the greatest women golfer of all time.

In 1941, the course was appropriated by the British Was Ministry for a reserve airfield, and after the war there were neither the funds nor the demand to restore the course.  The current Struie Course contains two fully intact holes from the 1923 Ladies Course, its 15th and 16th.  The 16th (which was the opening hole on the Ladies Course) is a longish par 4 with one of the most interesting green complexes on all of the Dornoch links and the 15th (the 17th on the Ladies Course) is a marvellous short par 4 with a heaving fairway and elusive small green.  Just behind that green you can see a recently abandoned tee, heading towards a recently abandoned green 150 yards away that was the 18th of the Ladies Course.  Amongst its many distinctions, this was the site of my only Dornoch hole-in-one....... ;)

PS--just to properly credit and thank Dr. John McLeod (RIP) :( for most of the information above, gleaned from his history of the club.

rfg
« Last Edit: January 04, 2009, 02:50:37 AM by Rich Goodale »

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2009, 03:26:18 AM »
That well known DOLL (Doyen Of Lady’s Links), Devereux Emmet, was at it again in 1927 when he found himself in Banksville, NY, after gaining the contract to build the Westchester Women’s Golf & Tennis Club. As the name implies, it was a club for women only and was ….”to be modeled after the idea of the course at Glen Head; it will be designed primarily to suit a woman’s game. The average player will not be faced with the problem of manipulating shots which are beyond her experience, or attempting long carries which inevitably impose heavy penalties.Yet it will be a championship course in every sense of the word. Those who have had the opportunity to play the Women’s National will fully appreciate what this means”.(from a 1927 article by Glenna Collett)  

Sometime around 1940 the name, and operation, changed to The Westchester Golf Club and men became participants. In the 1960s it became an 18 hole par 3 course, but now it’s NLE (housing). The original clubhouse building still exists and it has been transformed into the famous LaCremaillere Restaurant. The ancient caddy house also stands and is now a private residence. (thank you Doris Finch Watson, North Castle Town Historian) 

The original layout can be seen in this 1934 aerial photo ( on the lower left, near the letter “M”):
 
  http://tinyurl.com/93pr6a
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Lyne Morrison

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Re: Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2009, 03:48:42 AM »

Thanks Tom Paul – another interesting thread ..and you are helping me learn at the same time.

It would seem reasonable to have provided women with their own course given the social norms / restrictions of the day. It would also appear that this initiative was a necessary element in accelerating women’s involvement in the game.

Mark – it is encouraging to hear that Wirral Ladies has greens that are ‘deliciously defended’, I would like to see those one day.

Melvyn – another fine image, thank you.


This thread led me to take my copy of The Illustrated History of Women’s Golf off the bookshelf for the first time in many years. In it Rhonda Glenn speaks of the development of the game for women. With regards the British side of things she says:

'By the 1860’s British women were establishing their own clubs. The St Andrew’s Ladies Club formed in 1867 and by 1886 it had five hundred members. Another ladies club formed at Westward Ho! in North Devon in 1868.'

'The woman athlete faced several hazards; the first was her wardrobe…however women who played serious golf faced other obstacles. At most courses they were prohibited from entering the clubhouse, except on the day of the annual mixed foursome, when they entered by the back door. For the remainder of the season they changed their shoes and stored their clubs in a single room of a small cottage or improvised dressing room made of corrugated iron, perhaps eight feet square.'

'The Wimbledon ladies had a clubhouse of their own…considered to be unusually posh for the times… At most clubs women made do with humble rooms or buildings that were little more than shacks...and they were usually restricted to playing a short nine-hole ladies course or worse, the clubs putting course.’

To improve their lot, a body of women decided to establish a national society and the name “Ladies Golf Union” was subsequently adopted in 1893. The first Ladies Championship was played at Royal Lytham and St Anne’s that year. The ladies course is reported to have been 'a tame setting', 'devoid of ocean breezes' and ‘short and easy' by modern standards.

In 1908 the British Ladies Amateur Championship was staged at St Andrews for the first time in 300 years with Old Tom’s blessing. Melvyn – Old Tom died two days after the tournament concluded. By 1912 the LGU had more than 500 affiliated clubs and had successfully set up their handicapping system.


In the United States at the turn of the century, wealthy women were free to explore golf. Ed - Rhonda Glenn continues:

‘No-one took golf more seriously than the ladies of Morristown, New Jersey. Morristown was a quite little village inhabited by the very rich. Many residents were learning to play golf and when a few got together to plan a golf course there would have been no stir, except that the group was made up entirely of women. These women decided to undertake a huge task – in 1893 they would commission the design and building of their own 18-hole course. For women only – The Morris County Golf Club. Until this time, with the exception 'of a rare mixed foursome event', women had been restricted to the putting course. In 1892 Shinnecock Hills had built a course for women, but with 12 holes only. Honorary memberships were granted to the clergy, and two hundred men were allowed to join as “associate members”.'

With the assistance of Robert Cox of Edinburgh, Scotland… ‘A course of 6030 yards was laid out, extremely long for women at that time. Six holes were over 400 yards. The 545 yard 13th played to a par of 7 and “bogey” of 8.’

The 'all women' golf club was an experiment that failed before too many years passed with the men intent on taking over club administration. However the women had made their mark and in 1896 the club hosted the second US Women’s Amateur Championship, won by Beatrix Hoyt. The Robert Cox Cup (donated by Cox) remains as one of the most beautiful in the game and continues to be the prize for the US Women’s Amateur Championship.


Cheers, Lyne


Lyne Morrison

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Re: Women's courses (Women's clubs)
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2009, 04:17:24 AM »

Meg – not to worry -- it’s an evolving process  :).

A number of fine women were able to make significant contributions at that time. Marion Hollins... Margaret and Harriot Curtis and in Britain the founder of England’s Ladies Golf Union, Issette Parson. Their efforts and those of many others are commendable indeed.

That said, it is only in the past few years that women have been able to play Saturdays at my club -- we continue to make inroads and now have a respected female Club President, something unheard of previously at a “Royal” club.

All good for the game.

Cheers,  Lyne

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