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[Nicholas Coppolo]

Forgive me if we've discussed this before but I couldn't find anything in the archives.  If I missed it feel free to send me that way.

I remember a post a while back where Tom D said something about his favoring small greens in general (if possible based on the client).  Some of my  favorite courses feature medium to giant greens (TOC and C&C 2 designs in Austin come immediately to mind).  I feel they provide MANY more strategic options than small ones. 

I know variety is the spice of life but what are the merits of small(ish) greens over large ones?   It seems to me that more can be done in terms of movement, angles and pin locations with larger ones.

While both reward strong iron play,
Smaller greens tend to emphasize the whole green complex in terms of recovery.
Larger greens tend to emphasize putting.

Isn't the balance of of playability (keeping the course rating high while keeping the slope low) more easily achieved with small targets within big rolling large greens?

Enlighten me. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Nicholas,
You can keep the speed down on a small green.

If the 'average' player is an 18 hdcp., he or she is probably missing a lot of greens no matter their size. Smaller greens can give the impression of having easier recoveries, this can be a confidence booster to this player when he's missed, even though the recovery might not be so easy. I think it also more fun to use the short game versus hittng 80' putts.

Small greens 'force' the low hdcp. players to be precise.



   

[Nicholas Coppolo]

Just want to clarify/ask

Small:  <4500 sq.ft.

Medium: 4500-7500

Large: 7500-10000

Giant:  >10000

??

[Bill_McBride]

Nicholas, when talking about C&C designs in Austin that feature very large interesting greens, are you thinking of Barton Creek?  That course doesn't get a lot of love when compared to the Fazio courses there, but I love the greens at the Cliffside course and think the course is much better than the general opinion.

They are uniform only in their great size, and how they literally sprawl across the interesting contours of that site.  As many as six or seven fall away rather steeply from the front toward the back - #1 a bit, #3 and #4 a lot, #8, #9, #13? par 5?, #16 for sure.  And how about #6 with the wild slope from left to right?  Those are amazing and very fun greens to play.

[Nicholas Coppolo]

Nicholas, when talking about C&C designs in Austin that feature very large interesting greens, are you thinking of Barton Creek?  That course doesn't get a lot of love when compared to the Fazio courses there, but I love the greens at the Cliffside course and think the course is much better than the general opinion.

They are uniform only in their great size, and how they literally sprawl across the interesting contours of that site.  As many as six or seven fall away rather steeply from the front toward the back - #1 a bit, #3 and #4 a lot, #8, #9, #13? par 5?, #16 for sure.  And how about #6 with the wild slope from left to right?  Those are amazing and very fun greens to play.

Yes Bill,
    I'm thinking of the Cliffside and to a much lesser extent, AGC (though that course has mostly medium and a few small greens as well)

I've said before, I worked and played out of BC for many seasons and believe the C&C course there is the most interesting, strategic and thought provoking course of the four.   I'll also go a step further, and say (because of those greens, especially after the resurfacing), its one of the most thought provoking courses in the state. I also know its the "ugly step sister", "warm-up" course for 99% of resort guests.  I think if they played it with a caddie (only the Fazio courses have madatory caddies) they'd appreciate and enjoy it much more.

But many people love  "Jackass"  and fall asleep during "The Maltese Falcon"....there's no accounting for taste.

Most of those greens play VERY small for the player looking to make birdie.  Every approach requires a decision to make in terms of working with the slopes or against, flighting the right stick high enough to stop or swinging a shorter stick low and running...

Most of the time players have to aim well away from the pin.

When pins are cut in interesting positions (like they did when we hosted the Canadian tour)
players have to choose to challenge their short game with a potential miss, or play safe and hope for 2 good putts.

Am I in the minority that I think this way is more interesting and fair for everyone than just trying to hit a green and keep in below the hole?

Nicholas,
You can keep the speed down on a small green.

If the 'average' player is an 18 hdcp., he or she is probably missing a lot of greens no matter their size. Smaller greens can give the impression of having easier recoveries, this can be a confidence booster to this player when he's missed, even though the recovery might not be so easy. I think it also more fun to use the short game versus hittng 80' putts.

Small greens 'force' the low hdcp. players to be precise.
  

I don't agree that most 18 handicappers would rather play out of a greenside bunker to a small green that have an 80 ft putt....in the end, they'd rather have hit the green than not.

I also think that the only thing about a smaller green that helps "keep the speed down" is the fact that they're too small to have any bold interesting moves on them....green speed is not a size issue, its a contouring one.

Also, no matter what size green your playing to, good players are generally looking to hit within 8 yards of the pin (with the appropriate club).  I would MUCH rather play out of a bunker with some green to work with than have a 65 foot putt with 3 or 4 moves in it.....That would keep me pretty accurate, or force me to make some decisions about my target risk/reward.

Like I said, am I in the minority??

Is it cost?  Does a 9000 sqft green with 2 bunkers cost more to maintain than a 5000 with 4 bunkers?

[Gary Slatter]

I prefer larger greens in known windy areas, and smaller greens anywhere else.  But what I really enjoy is variety or a mixture.  Here in St Andrews I enjoy small greens where you can putt from 50 yards off the green, or on the next hole, have a 50 yard putt from on the green.  Fun!

[Anthony Gray]

  I would believe that most prefer larger greens. From the fairway it appears you have a better chance. The higher handicapper would rather be putting than chiping.

   Anthony

[Kyle Henderson]

Any designer worth his salt knows it's not the size of the surface but the motion of its contours that matter, unless women lie to me.

(Too obvious?)

[Nicholas Coppolo]

well played Henderson, well played.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Nicholas,

I didn't say they'd prefer to play out of bunkers, only that chipping to a small green is often preferable to an 80' putt. Generally speaking, the misses are short and the bunkers flank the greens.

There are small greens that will hold your interest.

Balance is achieved in more than one way, Harbortown and Pebble Beach are two courses considered to have some small greens.

[Tom_Doak]

Nicholas:

I have built courses with mostly small greens (under 5000 sq ft), courses with very large ones (Old Macdonald has several above 10,000 sq ft), and courses with a range in between.  Any of these concepts is fine depending on how it fits into the property and how the rest of the course works around it.

In general, a small green (even with more bunkers) will cost less to maintain than a big green ... and I'm not sure why you think the small green needs more bunkers, it might need LESS because it's already a small target.  It also costs less to build a small green, if you're importing greens mix.

Big greens do offer more options for hole locations, and give the chance for more day-to-day strategy.  But, is that better design?  Or, at some point (as with split fairways), does it become gratuitous and inefficient?

My reluctance on big greens is that the good player might just aim at the middle of the greens all day and avoid recovery shots ... they give players more chance to "play around their backhand" so to speak.  It's possible to make them interesting enough to avoid that trap, but it isn't easy; they get very busy-looking and hard to remember, and lots of guys make lots of three-putts.  I've never seen Bill & Ben's course at Barton Creek, and I know them well enough to have faith that there are a lot of cool things out there; but I know from others' reviews that it's the blind shots and the three-putts that make it unpopular.

You are right that smaller greens tend to limit contouring, but don't forget that the greens at Crystal Downs and Winged Foot average only about 5000 square feet ... most of us today just aren't good enough to pack that much interest into that small a green.  It's just safer to build them bigger, so everyone does.  And that's why I want to build small greens when the situation allows.

[Sam Morrow]

The C & C Course at Barton Creek has a pretty good mix, there are a few giant greens (3 and 7?) come to mind but there are also some nice small greens. The green on 14? the downhill reachable par 4 is tiny as is the green on 17 that is very shallow.

[Nicholas Coppolo]

Tom D, Thank you or the response.

You are absolutely correct that small greens might actually require fewer hazards due to the inherent difficulty in their size.

My experience with small(ish) greens is at WF West and Colonial (I did enjoy both courses) where I felt a forced by the bunkering/target size.  I felt in most cases that center of the green was the best target for all but front pins.  It was mostly about hitting the green, not about attacking a pin with a specific shot.  That worked its way all the way back to the tee in that I felt  pressure to just find the fairway rather than a specific portion of the fairway, or to take on risk/reward fairway bunkers when in the end I would still be aiming for the center of the green.

I also felt that those greens relied on a single dominant angle and/or the occasional shelf as their primary defense, so that the primary shot making requirement dealt mostly with trajectory and spin rather than shape.

I was hovering around scratch when I played those courses, but as you all know, there's a GIANT divide between scratch and pro.   I'm confident the pros that play those courses feel much more comfortable shaping shots into pins that weren't worth it to me.

I maintain that variety is the best policy.

The biggest complaints I hear from resort guests at the C&C Barton Creek course are,
-"it looks like a muny" =     Few casual golfers get minimalism
-"Greens are too firm, to difficult, and unfair" =  They are hitting the inappropriate shots to the inappropriate number.

TOM D:
"Big greens do offer more options for hole locations, and give the chance for more day-to-day strategy.  But, is that better design? "

I guess that's the question I'm getting at....I don't know!!??

[Sam Morrow]

Tom D, Thank you or the response.

You are absolutely correct that small greens might actually require fewer hazards due to the inherent difficulty in their size.

My experience with small(ish) greens is at WF West and Colonial (I did enjoy both courses) where I felt a forced by the bunkering/target size.  I felt in most cases that center of the green was the best target for all but front pins.  It was mostly about hitting the green, not about attacking a pin with a specific shot.  That worked its way all the way back to the tee in that I felt  pressure to just find the fairway rather than a specific portion of the fairway, or to take on risk/reward fairway bunkers when in the end I would still be aiming for the center of the green.

I also felt that those greens relied on a single dominant angle and/or the occasional shelf as their primary defense, so that the primary shot making requirement dealt mostly with trajectory and spin rather than shape.

I was hovering around scratch when I played those courses, but as you all know, there's a GIANT divide between scratch and pro.   I'm confident the pros that play those courses feel much more comfortable shaping shots into pins that weren't worth it to me.

I maintain that variety is the best policy.

The biggest complaints I hear from resort guests at the C&C Barton Creek course are,
-"it looks like a muny" =     Few casual golfers get minimalism
-"Greens are too firm, to difficult, and unfair" =  They are hitting the inappropriate shots to the inappropriate number.

TOM D:
"Big greens do offer more options for hole locations, and give the chance for more day-to-day strategy.  But, is that better design? "

I guess that's the question I'm getting at....I don't know!!??

If anybody says that the Coore/Crenshaw looks like a muni then they play some pretty kickass munis.

[Bill_McBride]

The C & C Course at Barton Creek has a pretty good mix, there are a few giant greens (3 and 7?) come to mind but there are also some nice small greens. The green on 14? the downhill reachable par 4 is tiny as is the green on 17 that is very shallow.

Sam, that 14th hole is only 275 yards long, it had better have a tiny green!  I actually think the tree to the left is bigger than the green.

I think perhaps the fall away #4 green is the biggest on the course but there are some really huge ones.  It's amazing how underrated that course is.

[JMEvensky]

As a Longhorn alum who hasn't been back to Austin in too many years,where exactly is Austin Golf Club?

[Sam Morrow]

The C & C Course at Barton Creek has a pretty good mix, there are a few giant greens (3 and 7?) come to mind but there are also some nice small greens. The green on 14? the downhill reachable par 4 is tiny as is the green on 17 that is very shallow.

Sam, that 14th hole is only 275 yards long, it had better have a tiny green!  I actually think the tree to the left is bigger than the green.

I think perhaps the fall away #4 green is the biggest on the course but there are some really huge ones.  It's amazing how underrated that course is.

I think that tree is bigger! You're right, I forgot about 4 green, that's a cool hole.

[Sam Morrow]

As a Longhorn alum who hasn't been back to Austin in too many years,where exactly is Austin Golf Club?

On 71 just past the river. I think it's a Spicewood address.

[MargaretC]

Any designer worth his salt knows it's not the size of the surface but the motion of its contours that matter, unless women lie to me.

(Too obvious?)

Kyle:

Sad to say, but some women do lie.   I can't say that a woman has lied to you, but...

Meg



PS:  Please forgive me Kyle, but I just had to respond.  A character flaw on my part, but I just couldnt ignore your post.        

[Kalen Braley]

[Bill_McBride]

As a Longhorn alum who hasn't been back to Austin in too many years,where exactly is Austin Golf Club?

It's on 71 west of town, at Spicewood where you turn off to go to the Palmer Barton Creek course (#4 of the four to my eye) and the Lakecliff CC course that is pretty good.  You can't see the C&C Austin Golf Club from the road.

[Kyle Henderson]

Any designer worth his salt knows it's not the size of the surface but the motion of its contours that matter, unless women lie to me.

(Too obvious?)

Kyle:

Sad to say, but some women do lie.   I can't say that a woman has lied to you, but...

Meg



PS:  Please forgive me Kyle, but I just had to respond.  A character flaw on my part, but I just couldnt ignore your post.        

It's nice to have a women respond to me in any way, shape or form...

[Sam Morrow]

As a Longhorn alum who hasn't been back to Austin in too many years,where exactly is Austin Golf Club?

It's on 71 west of town, at Spicewood where you turn off to go to the Palmer Barton Creek course (#4 of the four to my eye) and the Lakecliff CC course that is pretty good.  You can't see the C&C Austin Golf Club from the road.

If you know where to look you will see the giant flagpole. that's the best reference point, aside from the fence.

[JMEvensky]

As a Longhorn alum who hasn't been back to Austin in too many years,where exactly is Austin Golf Club?

It's on 71 west of town, at Spicewood where you turn off to go to the Palmer Barton Creek course (#4 of the four to my eye) and the Lakecliff CC course that is pretty good.  You can't see the C&C Austin Golf Club from the road.

If you know where to look you will see the giant flagpole. that's the best reference point, aside from the fence.

Thanks.Now if I can just remember where the hell 71 and Spicewood are.It's been way too long.

[Sam Morrow]

As a Longhorn alum who hasn't been back to Austin in too many years,where exactly is Austin Golf Club?

It's on 71 west of town, at Spicewood where you turn off to go to the Palmer Barton Creek course (#4 of the four to my eye) and the Lakecliff CC course that is pretty good.  You can't see the C&C Austin Golf Club from the road.

If you know where to look you will see the giant flagpole. that's the best reference point, aside from the fence.

Thanks.Now if I can just remember where the hell 71 and Spicewood are.It's been way too long.

Out west of town, it used to be the sticks but now it's close to everything. The new Galleria is actually pretty close to it.

[JMEvensky]

As a Longhorn alum who hasn't been back to Austin in too many years,where exactly is Austin Golf Club?

It's on 71 west of town, at Spicewood where you turn off to go to the Palmer Barton Creek course (#4 of the four to my eye) and the Lakecliff CC course that is pretty good.  You can't see the C&C Austin Golf Club from the road.

If you know where to look you will see the giant flagpole. that's the best reference point, aside from the fence.

Thanks.Now if I can just remember where the hell 71 and Spicewood are.It's been way too long.

Out west of town, it used to be the sticks but now it's close to everything. The new Galleria is actually pretty close to it.

Does this mean that Bert's BBQ and Dirty Martin's are no longer the centers of the universe?

[Steve Lang]

  Man are you going to have some visual and mental shock when you do return to Austin..

As far as testing one's game, don't you need a little of everything, not too much of anything?  My favorite course in The Woodlands has big, medium, small, angled, elevated, contoured, domed-crowned -turtle back, divided, potato chip, square, wide, shallow, curvy, biarritz, redan and flattish type green characteristics mixed together..  the last 4 holes have 15) turtle back, 16)very small flattish blind from alps, 17) thin front-angled-wider backed small, and 18) elevated-false front, false right-side-long-wide in back.. which means, if you aren't ready and accurate you're going to suffer at the finish.

p.s.  the waite staff in Austin is still right up there in education with those in Boulder and Berkeley

[Sam Morrow]

As a Longhorn alum who hasn't been back to Austin in too many years,where exactly is Austin Golf Club?

It's on 71 west of town, at Spicewood where you turn off to go to the Palmer Barton Creek course (#4 of the four to my eye) and the Lakecliff CC course that is pretty good.  You can't see the C&C Austin Golf Club from the road.

If you know where to look you will see the giant flagpole. that's the best reference point, aside from the fence.

Thanks.Now if I can just remember where the hell 71 and Spicewood are.It's been way too long.

Out west of town, it used to be the sticks but now it's close to everything. The new Galleria is actually pretty close to it.

Does this mean that Bert's BBQ and Dirty Martin's are no longer the centers of the universe?

Hmm, I've never been to either of those places. Sorry.

[Bill_McBride]

As a Longhorn alum who hasn't been back to Austin in too many years,where exactly is Austin Golf Club?

It's on 71 west of town, at Spicewood where you turn off to go to the Palmer Barton Creek course (#4 of the four to my eye) and the Lakecliff CC course that is pretty good.  You can't see the C&C Austin Golf Club from the road.

If you know where to look you will see the giant flagpole. that's the best reference point, aside from the fence.

Thanks.Now if I can just remember where the hell 71 and Spicewood are.It's been way too long.

Out west of town, it used to be the sticks but now it's close to everything. The new Galleria is actually pretty close to it.

Does this mean that Bert's BBQ and Dirty Martin's are no longer the centers of the universe?

Hmm, I've never been to either of those places. Sorry.

Has anybody been to the new Las Manitas?  They had to move down Commerce St when Marriott or somebody like that bought the block their old place was in downtown.  Best migas in Austin. 

[Sam Morrow]

As a Longhorn alum who hasn't been back to Austin in too many years,where exactly is Austin Golf Club?

It's on 71 west of town, at Spicewood where you turn off to go to the Palmer Barton Creek course (#4 of the four to my eye) and the Lakecliff CC course that is pretty good.  You can't see the C&C Austin Golf Club from the road.

If you know where to look you will see the giant flagpole. that's the best reference point, aside from the fence.

Thanks.Now if I can just remember where the hell 71 and Spicewood are.It's been way too long.

Out west of town, it used to be the sticks but now it's close to everything. The new Galleria is actually pretty close to it.

Does this mean that Bert's BBQ and Dirty Martin's are no longer the centers of the universe?

Hmm, I've never been to either of those places. Sorry.

Has anybody been to the new Las Manitas?  They had to move down Commerce St when Marriott or somebody like that bought the block their old place was in downtown.  Best migas in Austin. 

Never been there. The best ritas I ever had in Austin were about 4 years ago when I made them by hand. It was 4am and I was in some coeds apartment, I had met her an hour earlier but we became good friends. I was at the Bullock Museum ( a must see!!!!) by 9 and on #1 at Grey Rock by 12!!!!!

[Bill_McBride]

As a Longhorn alum who hasn't been back to Austin in too many years,where exactly is Austin Golf Club?

It's on 71 west of town, at Spicewood where you turn off to go to the Palmer Barton Creek course (#4 of the four to my eye) and the Lakecliff CC course that is pretty good.  You can't see the C&C Austin Golf Club from the road.

If you know where to look you will see the giant flagpole. that's the best reference point, aside from the fence.

Thanks.Now if I can just remember where the hell 71 and Spicewood are.It's been way too long.

Out west of town, it used to be the sticks but now it's close to everything. The new Galleria is actually pretty close to it.

Does this mean that Bert's BBQ and Dirty Martin's are no longer the centers of the universe?

Hmm, I've never been to either of those places. Sorry.

Has anybody been to the new Las Manitas?  They had to move down Commerce St when Marriott or somebody like that bought the block their old place was in downtown.  Best migas in Austin. 

Never been there. The best ritas I ever had in Austin were about 4 years ago when I made them by hand. It was 4am and I was in some coeds apartment, I had met her an hour earlier but we became good friends. I was at the Bullock Museum ( a must see!!!!) by 9 and on #1 at Grey Rock by 12!!!!!

"Migas" are a great Tex-Mex egg dish that are even better when mixed with a side order of chorizo.  A side order of a Margarita wouldn't be a bad idea either!