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[Garland Bayley]

Hi Anthony,

I think the shot testing idea, refines target golf further. Pete not only demanded a quality shot, but he also asked for specific shaping. His favorite way to build a two shotter is to make the player bend the ball once in each direction.

[Nick Schaan]

I would agree the things that made it important are that is perhaps the greatest combination of strategic, heroic, and penal golf shots, and holes. I played the course in 2008 at the golf show with a bunch of my compatriates from DMK Golf Design, and was surprised by how many of the holes had all three strategic, heroic, and penal elements, of varrying varieties, and even though it is designed strictly for the best players in the world, we wre all able to get around it wiht a little caution and thought.

There are so many cituations where Dye uses classical even golden age concpets in different ways to develop options and required shotmaking.

The other thing I think is really important is how he used diabolical shapes around greens and bunkers. Many of the old courses around the world the types of shapes are found around the green. I can't help but wonder what TPC would look like in cool season grasses, and how close fescues and such would be around the greens.

And then the stadium effect is huge, Look at a bunch of the course built post Sawgrass wiht realestate around them  


My three choices for most important since:

Sand Hills: it really set the stage for the resurgance of a architecturally wild natural style in the states.

Kingsbarns: perhaps the finest built golf course, and a fine example of somthing that looks very very natural, and yet it totaly man made

Chambers Bay: was built really for one specific reason, to bring a major championship to the Pacific Northwest. the amount of care and thought during design and in construction that was given to circulation and needs other than golf was huge.

[Ian Andrew]

Sand Hills – Coore and Crenshaw
Minimalisms Landmark Course

The work at Sand Hills became the defining course for this generation – the ripples still continue to influence even the biggest names in the business. Sand Hills was a great natural site featuring massive rolling hills, natural sand blowouts, and long views out to the horizon. When presented with the site, Coore and Crenshaw realized that there were hundreds of natural holes in every direction. Rather than change the site or link the very best holes he could with long paths - they patiently walked and walked the site till he found a progression of 18 natural holes. They let the flow of the land lead them around the property. The blowouts became the primary strategy and the unique quality that sets this course apart from all others. Coore and Crenshaw recognized that these blowouts had the size and scale to compete with the wide open space and chose to swing his fairways around these features with large lateral movements. This approach was most appropriate since the wide lateral movement fit the monumental scale of the site. The course is strategically outstanding, sits in complete harmony with the scale of the site and blends perfectly into the surrounding landscape – think Prairie Dunes on a grand scale.

Pacific Dunes – Tom Doak
Greatness ignores convention

Doak was clever enough to see the opportunity to contrast David Kidd’s layout and deliver a new version of Cypress Point. He and his team resisted the period’s drive for length, and instead he opted for a golf course that was beautiful and eminently playable. It took guts to ignore the typical “minimum” 7000 yards or get constrained by other standards. The unconventional placement of threes throughout the round is a testament to using what was found, rather than forcing something in. They were smart to recognize the golf course would be very exposed to the wind, and created lots of width in the course to keep it playable in tough conditions. The use of interior bunkering to place emphasis on driving the ball in a mild wind was a clever way of keeping width and challenge at the same time. There use of interior hazards became very influential on the courses that have tried to draw on the minimalist approach. Pacific Dunes showed golf that a great course could be built without length and be intentionally playable for the average player.

Rustic Canyon – Gil Hanse
Great golf can be built for very little

The influence is primarily the economic model. The golf course design follows the land, with little shaping beyond the tees, bunkers and green sites. This means they were able to build it for a modest budget, and the course only needs a modest green fee to make a return. Since the course is well designed, it is popular with all types of players. From a beginner to scratch handicap, each player is given a different test to fit the limits of their skill. Because it is so well liked, the course is busy, which guarantees the course will generate income for the community or ownership.

The genius of the design is the course echoes the strategies and spirit of St. Andrew’s better than almost any other course designed in recent times. The green’s are very complex and involve strict placement off the tee to ensure access to pin positions. The turf beyond the greens is kept intentionally short to make the ground game the game of choice. This brings in an element of chance and luck rarely seen on other modern courses. The bunkering is present, but like St. Andrew’s, the player feels they have lots of room to play safe away from most bunkering. The fairways are wide, with an immense amount of options, but often the most dangerous route is the one that opens up the green. Gil Hanse, Jim Wagner and Geoff Shackelford have managed to bring the spirit of Scottish golf into a California Canyon.

[Nick Schaan]

Ian,

I agree totally with Rustic Canyon.

[Jay Flemma]

[

Sean-  can you IM Tuco please when you get a second...

Sean, don't bother.  You wont want to get dragged in or be bothered. 

[Garland Bayley]

[

Sean-  can you IM Tuco please when you get a second...

Sean, don't bother.  You wont want to get dragged in or be bothered.

Have to wonder if you fellers don't know how to use the IM capability of this site.

[Garland Bayley]

I tried to make a tally of the support for the courses. It is a little difficult given a certain amount fo hedging and overvoting, but I did as I thought best.

Sand Hills is overwhelmingly the top pick with more than twice as much support as any other course. That being said, it of course is private, so we will have to have at least three more to get the three most significant public courses. As it turns out, there is a three-way tie for the next slot. Kingsbarns, Rustic Canyon, and Whistling Straits (Straits). I guess that add support to why Pete has been so influential, as even with Sawgrass being the basis of the list, another course of his is considered tres significant by this august body.

Bandon Dunes Resort has to get special mention, because Pacific Dunes and Bandon Dunes tied for the next slot along with a couple of others. Those others being Sebonack and Shadow Creek.

If the group keeps voting, I will keep counting.

[Mike Mosely]

Public, right?  Tobacco Road, Pacific Dunes, Kiawah (Ocean)

[Ian Andrew]

To me: Architecturally important = influence on the future of architecture

Sand Hills – everyone has altered their style if not reassessed their outlook on architecture because of this course

Pacific Dunes – removed the pressure of par 72 and 7,000 yards and a tough test

Whisting Straights – where is the influence? are other architects beyond Pete building these?

Shadow Creek - may have a great argument for the influence that it carried – leave no stone unturned….

Tobacco Road - may have an impact since every middle age designer I know has gone to see and play the course - there are few courses built after Sawgrass that can lay that claim.

[Kalen Braley]

To me: Architecturally important = influence on the future of architecture

Whisting Straights – where is the influence? are other architects beyond Pete building these?

Ian,

One can make a case that Chambers Bay was built as a result of the WS model....and so far to seemingly very good results for each of them.  This could very well catch on to a larger extent.

[Garland Bayley]

Ian,

I think your three picks are generally supported by the group. I would guess that the only reason Pacific Dunes did not finish second in the group totals, is that it was the second course build at the resort. Rustic of course came in third (tied). I also, don't see the reason Whistling Straits is getting the support that it has gotten.

Perhaps the message of the Castle Stuart thread is, if you want to build one of these, you had better build a Rustic Canyon or two first!

[Sam Morrow]

Far and away Sand Hills has to be at the top of the list.

Then (in no particular order)...

Pacific Dunes
Pete Dye Golf Club
Chambers Bay

Honorable Mention:
Tobacco Road
Rawls Course - Texas Tech

Chip,

 I love the Rawls Course but why do you include it?

[Mike_Cirba]

Sand Hills – Coore and Crenshaw
Minimalisms Landmark Course

The work at Sand Hills became the defining course for this generation – the ripples still continue to influence even the biggest names in the business. Sand Hills was a great natural site featuring massive rolling hills, natural sand blowouts, and long views out to the horizon. When presented with the site, Coore and Crenshaw realized that there were hundreds of natural holes in every direction. Rather than change the site or link the very best holes he could with long paths - they patiently walked and walked the site till he found a progression of 18 natural holes. They let the flow of the land lead them around the property. The blowouts became the primary strategy and the unique quality that sets this course apart from all others. Coore and Crenshaw recognized that these blowouts had the size and scale to compete with the wide open space and chose to swing his fairways around these features with large lateral movements. This approach was most appropriate since the wide lateral movement fit the monumental scale of the site. The course is strategically outstanding, sits in complete harmony with the scale of the site and blends perfectly into the surrounding landscape – think Prairie Dunes on a grand scale.

Pacific Dunes – Tom Doak
Greatness ignores convention

Doak was clever enough to see the opportunity to contrast David Kidd’s layout and deliver a new version of Cypress Point. He and his team resisted the period’s drive for length, and instead he opted for a golf course that was beautiful and eminently playable. It took guts to ignore the typical “minimum” 7000 yards or get constrained by other standards. The unconventional placement of threes throughout the round is a testament to using what was found, rather than forcing something in. They were smart to recognize the golf course would be very exposed to the wind, and created lots of width in the course to keep it playable in tough conditions. The use of interior bunkering to place emphasis on driving the ball in a mild wind was a clever way of keeping width and challenge at the same time. There use of interior hazards became very influential on the courses that have tried to draw on the minimalist approach. Pacific Dunes showed golf that a great course could be built without length and be intentionally playable for the average player.

Rustic Canyon – Gil Hanse
Great golf can be built for very little

The influence is primarily the economic model. The golf course design follows the land, with little shaping beyond the tees, bunkers and green sites. This means they were able to build it for a modest budget, and the course only needs a modest green fee to make a return. Since the course is well designed, it is popular with all types of players. From a beginner to scratch handicap, each player is given a different test to fit the limits of their skill. Because it is so well liked, the course is busy, which guarantees the course will generate income for the community or ownership.

The genius of the design is the course echoes the strategies and spirit of St. Andrew’s better than almost any other course designed in recent times. The green’s are very complex and involve strict placement off the tee to ensure access to pin positions. The turf beyond the greens is kept intentionally short to make the ground game the game of choice. This brings in an element of chance and luck rarely seen on other modern courses. The bunkering is present, but like St. Andrew’s, the player feels they have lots of room to play safe away from most bunkering. The fairways are wide, with an immense amount of options, but often the most dangerous route is the one that opens up the green. Gil Hanse, Jim Wagner and Geoff Shackelford have managed to bring the spirit of Scottish golf into a California Canyon.

I agree, Ian, and think you could almost interchange Rustic Canyon with Wild Horse.   I give the nod to the former because it shows you can do it near major metro areas, and not just in the sticks.