Maybe Matt Ward is not 100% wrong

[Mike Sweeney]

Deltona, Sugarloaf, World Woods, Sawgrass, Seminole....... I was starting to think Matt Ward was 100% wrong about Florida golf. It has diversity. It has reasonable pricing. It has sand and elevation changes on the Lake Wales Ridge. It has water, it has the Atlantic Ocean and The Gulf of Mexico. It has a very captive audience for three months per year. Then you see this aerial in a golf magazine for a Joe Lee course and you start to think, "Why can't Florida deliver the big course?

Deer Island Country Club



Why does Florida not have "The Big Time Course?"

PS. I have not played Seminole, but I hear more about the ghost of Seminole versus the course.

[Carl Nichols]

I wonder whether Matt will chime in and disagree with this proposition.   

[Joe Hancock]

Unless there's someone who has actually played more courses in Florida than Matt and willing to take a contrary position, then I'm willing to let Matt be right(to avoid the inevitable).

I'd love to play Sugarloaf, Seminole and Mountain Lake on any given day.

Joe

[Anthony Gray]

  I would say the modern trend to have a new "great course" is that it must be links style. So does links land exsist in FL? Please remember no absolutes. But is there ideal land in FL?

  Anthony

[Tom_Doak]

Mike S:

The answer regarding your photo is the same answer in regard to courses in Mexico -- because the courses are developed for real estate first, and golf second.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike S:

The answer regarding your photo is the same answer in regard to courses in Mexico -- because the courses are developed for real estate first, and golf second.

I think Tom is right on the money. The best land seems to be on the Lake Wales Ridge and while WW Pine Barrens and Mountain Lake come pretty close, they are missing something that can probably only be delivered at a golf only private club like Seminole. In that area, there just isn't the population to support it.

Tom Doak,

Is Seminole a "Big Time Course?"

[Steve Lang]

  everything is on tilt in FLA..

with all the east coasters on the atlantic side, the midwesterners on the gulf side, the ac/dc folks on the tip and them grits cookin pan handlers on the white beaches..

and fairly normal folks 10+ miles from the coastline..

the old people live in st petersburg, and their parents in miami

incomes are variable and fixed

weather ain't everything

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

Seminole is a terrific course -- a 9 on the Doak scale.

I have taken lots of heat for that grade over the years, as it is a course which is easy to underestimate.  But two very good friends of mine who once dismissed the course, called me back years later to tell me how much it had grown on them over time, as they played it in various wind conditions.

Of course, lots of people aren't welcome to keep coming back until they understand it.

[TEPaul]

MikeS:

Noboby on here is 100% wrong. Pat Mucci is close at 98.2% but still that ain't 100%.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
Deer Island has more alligators on it than any course in Florida, bar none. I've played there a few times, and on one occasion a friend (who just passed away) and I stopped counting at roughly 200 critters.

We used to try and play it on a windy day for the sheer abuse.    Beats the whole confession/absolution thing. 



edit: If Deer Island was in CT. you wouldn't be able to put a porta-potty on it.

[Anthony Gray]

MikeS:

Noboby on here is 100% wrong. Pat Mucci is close at 98.2% but still that ain't 100%.

   Tom,

  According to my calculations if you are wrong 98.2% of the time like Pat that leaves you with 603 posts that are on the money. Still the winner by far!

  Anthony

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

TEPaul,

I've touted Seminole as one of the greatest member's golf courses in the U.S. for years

Mike Sweeney,

I think Tom Doak is right about the product's relationship to the end user.

Seminole, Pine Tree, Boca Rio are three outstanding golf courses which have nothing to do with real estate developments.

Once real estate is involved, the golf course inherently becomes a step-child.

I like Mountain Lake a great deal.  It's also a course you can enjoy day in and day out.
While it is inextricably connected to a development, it was done quite a long while ago, when golf courses were the hole in the donut with surrounding real estate, versus golf courses that wind their way through the development.

Mountain Lake also enjoys interesting topography unlike most courses a little further south.

[Mike Sweeney]

I would say that Calusa Pines is the "Modern Big Time Course" of Florida, but the land had to be moved and pushed, so it just misses the mark.

Does Old Memorial by Smyers in Tampa fit this category? I have never played it.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Hey you left out the 9 holer at the Cheeca!

Great golf has the best chance on land suitable for no other purpose. While once that meant linksland, in modern Florida it came to mean swampland.

The Scots and we are lucky oranges can't be grown on the East Coast of Lothian.)

It remains an idle daydream to buy a citrus farm on the southern end of the Florida Ridge and create a winter club. It would be on the edge of nowhere - there is no more middle of nowhere in what has become of Florida.)

It wouldn't be much on the conditioning front because we would do no harm to the Everglades.

Mark

[Nicholas Coppolo]

Define what we mean by "Big Time Course"??!

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
I've touted Seminole as one of the greatest member's golf courses in the U.S. for years"


Patrick:

I know you have but that was because I told you to! I haven't tried to do an exact calculation recently but since knowing me your percentage of correctness has gone from 1.8% to perhaps approximately 40-50% which isn't that bad really considering you're my worst and slowest student by a country mile.

[Bill_McBride]

Mike:

Seminole is a terrific course -- a 9 on the Doak scale.

I have taken lots of heat for that grade over the years, as it is a course which is easy to underestimate.  But two very good friends of mine who once dismissed the course, called me back years later to tell me how much it had grown on them over time, as they played it in various wind conditions.

Of course, lots of people aren't welcome to keep coming back until they understand it.

There is a big fourball event at Seminole every year where national members bring their home club pros.  Our member Downing Gray, former Walker Cup player and two time captain, and our pro played a couple of years and told me it is the hardest course in the world when set up for that tournament. 

Hard as a rock, wind howling, balls won't stay on the greens, easier to hit a bunker shot into another bunker than to keep it on the green.  It didn't sound like much fun, and it sure didn't sound like a pushover.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

I echo what Tom D mentioned -- it's generally real estate first -- quality golf second.

Keep in mind, if the weather didn't turn cold up north few golf nuts would go to the state for that reason.

When you add up the total amount of golf in the Sunshine State (over 1,200 courses, I believe that's correct) and you then list the courses really noteworthy for possible national acclaim you'd be lucky to name a dozen courses. That's not a good batting average by any means.

Mike, if you want to see a big time public course (beyond World Woods) -- check out what Nicklaus did with Ocean Hammock in Palm Coast, one of his very best from the ones I've played of his. There are a few others but the key word is f-e-w.

Of course, one needs to give proper attention to TPC / Sawgrass given the Tour's never ending dollars to bolster it over the years.

[Michael Whitaker]

Mike S:

The answer regarding your photo is the same answer in regard to courses in Mexico -- because the courses are developed for real estate first, and golf second.

BINGO!!! I've often wondered how many of the great UK links courses would exist if that property were located in the US instead of the UK... in the US the courses would be pushed inland so that the prime oceanfront property could be developed.

There is no reason under the sun why great oceanside courses couldn't be built in Florida, or South Carolina for that matter. It has to be the value of the property that has prevented that from happening.

[Mike Sweeney]

Matt,

At some point you need to see the re-do of The Deltona Club by Bobby Weed between Orlando and Daytona Beach. I went back yesterday, and they have fantastic land, lots of variety, heroic shots and very good greens that need just a touch more speed. The course also has a no-rakes on the course policy and it plays very firm with balls bouncing all over the place. I would be curious to hear your opinion because some may not be able to overlook a flaws such as the neighborhood houses which are around, but are never in play. The small clubhouse should open up soon as they are now working out of the cart barn.

Define what we mean by "Big Time Course"??!

Nicholas,

I guess my definition is - "Are you willing to get on a plane to see the course?"

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Florida is really the kingpin for mass produced golf that serves in nearly all instances as a slave to real estate concerns. But, it also is hurt by some of the most drab and nondescript layouts one can possibly play. The general combo of H20 on one side and OB on the other gets long real fast.

Given what you said -- I will be at the PGA Show at the end of January so it might be possible to squeeze in a sidetrip to The Deltona Club. Mike, having houses doesn't disqualify a course for me -- nor is a course disqualified because it mandates you have to ride carts or other elements that the "classic school gents" on this site prefer.

I appreciate the heads-up -- no doubt you have a good eye for golf quality -- likely others who have been there can weigh in with their thoughts.

Mike, final item -- like your definition of "big time course." No doubt such a course would make one want to get on a plane and go. The issue for much of Florida golf -- is that you can certainly get on a plane but for nearly all of them it would be far better to pass over them by air rather than make a specific landing.

[Steve Lang]

  OUCH!

reminds me of a guy i met at grenelefe south course one winters day (while ms sheila attended a business meeting), he was from new york, at home most of time spent hitting balls at range to get ready to play, he played perhaps 2 dozen times a year (half in FLA in one week), couldn't take a divot to save his life, kept pulling up to save hands-wrists from pounding and topped ball,

he loved every minute of it, he didn't need much architectural challenge, there was plenty of it around

i got exhausted just watching

so what if there's no great number of touchstone courses in the gca pantheon of FLA..

go figure

 

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

If you love the golf there then knock yourself out.

As a 30+ handicap I can fully attest to your description of the guy you prefaced in
your last comments.

[Steve Lang]

  Matt, haven't been back to play in FLA since 1989,  go figure

[David_Madison]

The Concession was absolutely first rate as well, a big-boy course from the back but still playable and interesting from the shorter tees. As I was playing it, the thought hit me that this might be the first Nicklaus design that Jack couldn't really handle when he played it at the grand opening. I also thought it had the best playing surfaces of any course I'd ever seen.