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Mark Bourgeois

Guess you'll have to plan a return visit! Although it sounds like your partner may be justifiably skeptical of another l"ight-hearted weekend."

Ditto Neil's comments.

Mike_Cirba

Some speculation on why Ross's suggested changes at Seaview were largely never accomplished...

Ross was brought in April/May 1915, shortly after Geist hired both Wilfred Reid as professional and Wiliam Connellan as superintendent.  Tillinghast speculated that the combination of Ross and Reid's ideas would be used to "stiffen" the course, as many in PHiladelphia were all about making tough golf courses at that time (although that was never the original intent at Seaview).

Geist had already spent way over budget on this project, which was to originally open in 1914, but due to problems with fill in the swampy areas, was delayed until winter 1915.   Even a man with his deep pockets had some limitations. 

I think Hugh Wilson probably believed he could do this for Robert Lesley's friend Clarence Geist in his spare time, but when the project was already running two years, with Wilson's other demands on business (he resigned as chairman of the Merion green committee in Dec 1914, citing need to focus on business), etc., I think he gladly backed away from any further involvement, especially since Geist seemed to have hired quality "professional help" in the form of Ross, Reid, and Connellan.

Ross's plans were certainly intriguing and some of the suggestions would have created some bolder holes, but it would be interesting to understand what happened that first year.

Here's what we do know...

By October of 1915, William Connellan resigned.

By 1916, Wilfred Reid had left Seaview and moved to Wilmington CC in Delaware, where he would stay until the early 20s.

And as noted above, some of the most pressing things on Ross's list  (like a new, probably safer green for 16) were probably actually done at this time.

However, we also know that probably 80% of what Ross suggested was never done.

By 1916, the world was on fire and it wasn't long before the United States became embroiled in WWI, which brought all frivolous expenditures in the US to a halt.  

It's interesting to note that there is very little reported on Geist or Seaview til the middle 20s when a prominent women's tournament took place there.   He then became heavily involved with William Flynn building his Boca Raton courses, and it seems Seaview never really was "toughened", or "stiffened" as originally desired.  

Today, it seems to be much as it was built for originally;  a very pleasant place to play golf requiring intesting and thoughtful shot-placement.

Given that someone probably found the Ross drawings at Seaview, and the fact that just looking at them without much study they do seem to appear much as today's holes, is probably what generated the idea that Seaview was originally a Donald Ross course.

However, I can't imagine that others haven't looked at them over the years seeing notations such as "Present Sand Pit" and not have wondered who built the course originally.

 
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 09:25:20 AM by MikeCirba »

George_Bahto

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Mike - thank you for your effort - it is appreciated by most all of us, I’m sure. As Neil stated, there may be little some could add to the wonderful story of Seaview/Bay after you got done with the detils.

The course is flat, easily photographed but often with much ground level course photography, it is difficult to capture what you see while out on the course.

Given that, the photos I took were focused on the mounding thru the course and not on the holes themselves - unfortunate.

I think the 18th has a very strong hint of the 14th at St Andrews, the Long hole given the recommended cross-bunkering in the second shot landing area as well as the interesting tee shot.

This hole is really fun to play and one of my favorites on the course. Both the tee-shot and the second landing area (pinched) are a challenge although the green would be better served with that back shelf. And as you said the berming creating that punchbowl effect is stunning - esp in person.

Great job Mike and I hope it creates plenty of interest so others in the are get to play the course - esp fun  on a windy day.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Mike_Cirba

Mark & Uncle George,

Thanks for the kind words...I'm really glad to hear you guys enjoyed it.   

I think anyone here on GCA would enjoy Seaview Bay (and Pines) courses, especially with much better pricing in the off-winter months when there are many, many playable days.

Unless perhaps they are playing with a 47-inch "Bang" driver that carries the ball 350 yards.  ;) 

Sorry Matt...given the Joisey connection I couldn't resist.   ;D

Kyle Harris

Mike,

Have you spoken to anyone at Seaview? I'm willing to bet they'd be very open to hearing about your thoughts on the course's evolution. I am going to attempt to send their superintendent a note.

Mike_Cirba

Kyle,

No, I haven't.   I actually hadn't reached any conclusions until I reviewed all of this material and went though this exercise over the past week or so, and now feel comfortable with it.

I believe the folks at Seaview would likely be very accepting and even eager to learn more about the course evolution.   

I'm just skeptical that it matters at all to the parent chain, and I can tell you that they have a LOT of marketing and $$investment into the Ross legend.   They even have his name painted on the crown molding, and most every picture caption talks about "this stunning Ross hole", or "evident Ross touches are apparent" on that hole, etc..   His picture is prominent in all of their literature and if I came across a 15 - foot statue of Ross on the property it wouldn't have shocked me, so intertwined with the legend of Ross is their current perspective..

« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 10:45:43 AM by MikeCirba »

astavrides

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Thanks, Mike.  Well done, your diploma is in the mail.  I also enjoyed the story about you as a kid and your family driving onto the course.  You have a gift for writing.

You mentioned the Pines course a few posts ago.  Can you or someone convince me it is worth another visit?  I was underwhelmed (or whelmed, at best) by my first visit to it.


TEPaul

Mike:

You should know that there seems to be a number of instances that went on in the coming years (from 1915) where Ross and a few others such as John Reid (or Reed), a very peripatetic pro/greenkeeper (not Wilfred), sort of ran afoul of Wilson (Flynn) et al or even vice versa. GMGC was certainly one of them and we have the meeting minutes to prove it. It seems like it never got better into the 1920s with Ross and the so-called Philadelphia School architects. It was, in a word, pretty competitive and there seems to be a number of examples of that.

Of course, it should also be noted and considered that in the future (via the Pines Course at Seaview) that Geist pretty much got wedded to William Flynn as his primary architect (with his Seaview Pines course as well as a really massive over-all project at Boca Raton Florida---ie the two courses of Boca Raton North and South). William Flynn's daughter also informed us that Geist and her father (matter of fact the Flynn family) became very good personal friends to Geist and Flynn even advised him to do with Geist's own estate in Philadelpha, Launfal (today the Notre Dame Du Mur girls school across the street from Overbrook GC). 

Clarence Geist bought a large estate (Hardwicke) for his daughter next to his Launfal as a wedding present on her marriage to Van Horn Ely. The estate was sold in the 1950s and was turned into what is today Overbrook GC, ironically the only solo design of Ross's primary Philadelphia associate J.B. McGovern.

Clarence Geist, however, died in 1938.

I just did a Google search of Seaview's Clarence Geist and unfortunately noticed that my old friend (from GMGC) C. Geist Ely (Clarence Geist's grandson) died last year. I didn't know that but having known Geist Ely over the years I'm shocked he made it to all the way to 2007 and 76 years old. Geist Ely was, to put it mildly, a wild man!
« Last Edit: January 05, 2009, 11:30:46 AM by TEPaul »

JSlonis

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Thank God this thread is almost complete.   It was way more work than I'd imagined when I first thought about doing it, and of likely dubious value.

It does seem based on everything we've seen that there was very, very little Donald Ross work ever done at Seaview, although he did offer any number of interesting suggestions that likely would have improved the course had they been done.

Tomorrow I'll speculate on some of the reasons I think that Ross's plans largely went by the wayside.

However, that likely will have very little impact on the purported historical advertised heritage of Seaview and I'm sure that much like Pocono Manor, there is way too much marketing invested in the perpetuation of the Ross connection to switch horses now.

In a way, it reminds me of Joe Bausch's recent findings that Willie Park Jr., and not William Flynn, was responsible for the design of Philmont North.   The "Flynn connection" is so strong within Philadelphia that rather than embrace this information it seems to be purposefully ignored, at least to date.

That's sort of odd, given that Park is basically a rock-star to anyone with a more sophisticated understanding of golf course architecture.   As in the case of Seaview with a now well-documented Hugh Wilson pedigree, it's not like these clubs/courses are trading in Donald Ross for Joe Schmoe of Paducah.    One could even argue that they are trading up, especially when one considers how rare actual Hugh Wilson designs are, or how much Willie Park's work had direct influence on what became the Golden Age of design.

Nevertheless, the reality is that Ross is a household name, where Park and Wilson are not, so I don't really expect that this will be anything but our little secret.



Mike,

Nice work on all of this information.  Quite interesting indeed.

The folks at Philmont should embrace their history but they don't want to get tossed out of the annual "Flynn Cup" tourney that all the clubs play in.

TEPaul

"In a way, it reminds me of Joe Bausch's recent findings that Willie Park Jr., and not William Flynn, was responsible for the design of Philmont North.   The "Flynn connection" is so strong within Philadelphia that rather than embrace this information it seems to be purposefully ignored, at least to date."

MikeC:

One must give credit where it is due. The fact that Philmont North was designed by Willie Park Jr (and the South course basically by John Reid) although Park did not live long enough to see it constructed was discovered by Bob Labbance about 5-6 years ago. Bob Labbance at that time was hired to do a history book for Philmont.

Wayne and I had gotten to know Bob Labbance about 7-8 years ago when he was researching the Springhaven course (a Flynn redesign) and I will not forget when he called Wayne and I after he was hired by Philmont (who'd been touting their North course as a Flynn design) and telling us: "I think I have a problem with Philmont and Flynn." (he'd discovered it was a Park Jr design) ;)

I believe there may be some threads far into the back pages of this website to that effect.

Dave Maberry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike,
 Great job! Thanks for efforts and time required to post. I just looked at 1930 Ross booklet and Seaview is not listed?
 I look forward to a trip back to Seaview.
Dave

Mike_Cirba

Mike,
 Great job! Thanks for efforts and time required to post. I just looked at 1930 Ross booklet and Seaview is not listed?
 I look forward to a trip back to Seaview.
Dave


Thanks Dave...I appreciate the kind words.

It doesn't surprise me at all that Seaview is not included in the 1930 Ross booklet and I'm sure he wouldn't have considered the course one of his.

He kept the exact same 18 hole Hugh Wilson routing, and his suggestions for revisions were mostly adding or deepening bunkers, extending a few greens, building a couple of new ones, and that's about it.

Even there, only a small amount of those suggestions seem to have been implemented, which is probably too bad because a couple of his ideas were quite intriguing.

Still, based on what was done, calling Seaview a Donald Ross design is a bit like today calling Oakmont a Tom Fazio design.   He was there, he recommended a number of things, some of which were done, but the basic holes and original course were left largely unchanged.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 04:55:35 PM by MikeCirba »

Mike_Cirba

You mentioned the Pines course a few posts ago.  Can you or someone convince me it is worth another visit?  I was underwhelmed (or whelmed, at best) by my first visit to it.


Alex,

The Pines course is a lovely and peaceful place to play golf, but it's sort of a mixed-bag architecturally, which is likely the source of your whelmedness.   ;)

The original William Flynn nine, which I understand was built in 1931, includes some very good holes and today makes up holes 1, 2, and 12 through 18. 

I'm a bit confused on the dates for that course because I took this picture of the Flynn nine from a drawing in the clubhouse dated 1926, so I'm surprised it would have taken that long to build.



The Gordons built an additional 9 in the 50s which includes a few good holes, but three of those holes got annexed in the 70s to build the golf learning center.   Maryland architect Al Janis built 3 new holes...two are very funky and strange and one is a terrific par three, so go figure.

In any case, it's been a long, long time since I played there but I did walk the Flynn nine again the other day and it looked pretty good.

Mike_Cirba

I should mention that when the PGA Championship was played at Seaview in 1942, nine holes from the Hugh Wilson/Ross course were played along with the 9 Bill Flynn holes.   Sam Snead won in the finals over Jim Turnesa, and enlisted in the service right after winning.

I used to know the exact sequence they used, and I believe they finished on today's 18 of the Wilson course, but I'll have to look that up again.   

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thanks Mike, I'm convinced now. 

Chris_Blakely

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Some speculation on why Ross's suggested changes at Seaview were largely never accomplished...


I think Hugh Wilson probably believed he could do this for Robert Lesley's friend Clarence Geist in his spare time, but when the project was already running two years, with Wilson's other demands on business (he resigned as chairman of the Merion green committee in Dec 1914, citing need to focus on business), etc., I think he gladly backed away from any further involvement, especially since Geist seemed to have hired quality "professional help" in the form of Ross, Reid, and Connellan.


Here's what we do know...

By October of 1915, William Connellan resigned.

By 1916, Wilfred Reid had left Seaview and moved to Wilmington CC in Delaware, where he would stay until the early 20s.

 

Mike,

Is Seaview the location where William Connellan and Wilfred Reid originally hooked up before starting their golf design buisness?  I have played many of their Detroit, MI area golf courses.

Thanks,
Chris

Mike_Cirba

Chris,

Yes. 

Geist brought Reid over from GB to Seaview where Connellan was greenkeeper

Mike_Cirba

From a January 3rd, 1915 article by "Verdant Greene" in the Philly papers;



This part is particularly interesting as it describes the course upon opening, leading me to wonder even more what happened to largely neuter the greens over the years.

It also sounds to be a little dig at the whole popular idea at the time of emulating holes from abroad.


Mike_Cirba

Let me see if this works better;


Mike_Cirba

Wow, I almost took my eye out with that one...let me try one more, hoping for a happy medium.


Mike_Cirba

Hallelujah!   I've figured this picture sizing thing out...

Seaview might have been a bit more impressive of a thread with pics like these;  ;)


















Mike_Cirba

It would have helped make more sense of the old aerials, as well.

For instance, it looks like "The Snakepit" on 12 was actually originally TWO snakepits, one on each side of a large mound.   Today, only the fairway facing side bunker exists.


Kyle Harris

Mike,

Now that's a neat feature especially since it looks as though the tee is pointed directly at it.

Do you think there may have been fairway on the other side at one point?

Can I call you now?

Patrick_Mucci

Mike Cirba,

What troubles me most about Seaview, Hollywood, Pine Valley, Garden City, NGLA and Shinnecock is the loss of the expansive and extensive bunkering.

The early aerials of all those courses are quite remarkable.

THE question is:  With detailed aerials depicting these wonderful golf courses in their pristine years, why haven't these courses attempted more extensive restorations of those marvelous features, those extensive and expansive bunkering complexes ?

Kyle Harris

Mike Cirba,

What troubles me most about Seaview, Hollywood, Pine Valley, Garden City, NGLA and Shinnecock is the loss of the expansive and extensive bunkering.

The early aerials of all those courses are quite remarkable.

THE question is:  With detailed aerials depicting these wonderful golf courses in their pristine years, why haven't these courses attempted more extensive restorations of those marvelous features, those extensive and expansive bunkering complexes ?

Patrick,

I can go play Seaview right now for $19.00 after 12PM on Weekdays.

That is extremely cheap for a course like Seaview. When cash flow problems are the major concern I think the pedigree of the golf course is of a tertiary concern.

At least we know for a time when things are a bit more stable, however.

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