Seaview - Hugh Wilson or Donald Ross?? - A Historical Retrospective Analysis

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

Those pictures are tremendous.   Thanks for taking the time to document the course on what had to be a lovely, but increasingly frigid day.

[Joe Bausch]

Here is another article, perhaps the earliest I have (July 26, 1914 issue of the Philadelphia Record), where our boy Huey is mentioned and not DRoss.   

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

I find this July, 1914 article very perplexing and confusing and my brain is starting to hurt.
 
It states;

"Work began a little over a year ago and today golfers are playing over the entire eighteen holes.   Hugh I. Wilson, the Philadelphia amateur who laid out the two courses at Merion, built the course at Absecon, now known as the Seaview Golf Club."

Now, since we know that in those days the term "laid out" always merely meant "constructed to someone's else's design plans" (or so we've all been told here most assuredly ) , I'm left with one burning question, Indiana Joe(nes).

WHO THE HELL DESIGNED THESE THREE COURSES?!?!   

You call yourself a researcher?!?!?   

C'mon Joe...get on the case!  Inquiring minds need to know!!    


Seriously, Joe...this is another terrific find, and it makes me wonder all the more about whatever happened to the greens at Seaview...

"The putting greens will compare with the best greens in the country.   All of them are undulating and some of them are half an acre in extant."

Half an acre is over 20,000 square feet!!   

[Mike_Cirba]

Looking at the aerial from 1931, it's apparent that some of the greens were still quite a bit larger than they are today.

However, it also seems that the "match up" between that photo and more recent ones is off just a tad, with the 1931 photo lining up slightly southeast from today's aerial overall.

Still and all, it's apparent that today's 5th green was built to the right of the original punchbowl green, and not to the left as Ross recommended. 

It's also apparent looking at the size of greens like the old 9th and 10th and 14th that they've shrunk considerably over the years.

http://www.historicaerials.com/default.aspx?poi=3903

[Bradley Anderson]

Mike,

Not sure if this is helpful in clearing up the mystery of the greens, but Connellan developed a method for rebuilding greens. He would take native soil near the green from some patch of the rough and disc it up with various amendments to make it a good rich putting green medium. He would then strip the green of sod, and bring the mix to the green for amending the grade. The the sod would then be put back. That was one of his specialties. He could basically rebuild a green with everything that was there on site, in very short order.

[Bradley Anderson]

Mike,

There is no way those greens were ever 20,000 square feet. That would put all of that mounding inside of the putting surface. Also, judging from Ross' drawings they weren't more than 6,000 square feet on average - at best. It is possible however that the greensmowers were cutting well beyond the fill pads, but still, no way they were 20,000 sq ft. That's basically half a fairway.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bradley,

That nunber floored me too.

I am beginning to believe however, that a lot of the old courses mowed at green height a lot further out than we might imagine and started a thread recently to that effect that died a quick, probably well-deserved death because I don't think I explained myself very well.

It could also explain why the greens were termed as significantly undulating and why on holes like the old 12th st Garden City the mounding was cut at green height.

But, I do agree that was likely a bit of hyperbole.

[Mike_Cirba]

In addition to the aforementioned Seaview attributes, I had forgotten about this one...

In April 1916, long-time golf writer William H. Evans wrote an article detailing all of the changes being made to improve and toughen the Merion East course for the impending US Amateur that Merion was to host in the fall of that year.   The following is cropped from that longer article;

[Bradley Anderson]

Mike,

I tell you that Wilson guy was scandalous wasn't he? To allow all of those newspapermen to give him credit for MacDonalds work. Shocking. Just disgraceful. He probably didn't do Seaview either.

Now I'm wondering if this is a Philadelphian trait or was that Wilson guy just a bad hat? I mean can we trust anything that comes out of Philadelphia?

[Joe Bausch]

Mike,

I tell you that Wilson guy was scandalous wasn't he? To allow all of those newspapermen to give him credit for MacDonalds work. Shocking. Just disgraceful. He probably didn't do Seaview either.

Now I'm wondering if this is a Philadelphian trait or was that Wilson guy just a bad hat? I mean can we trust anything that comes out of Philadelphia?

Dear Bradley,

     We both agree with you.

Sincerely,
TMac and DMor
------------------------

[Joe Bausch]

Fred Byrod wrote a bit on Seaview right after Geist died.  This from the March 19, 1939 issue of the Philadelphia Inquirer:

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Bumping this up to the top in light of recent news.

[Joe Bausch]

I thought I would add this recent newspaper find to the mix, from the March 1, 1915 edition of the Evening Public Ledger.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike & TEPaul,

I haven't read this thread, but will tonight or tomorrow.

It was my understanding that Flynn did the Pines course and Ross did the Bay course..

What part of that is in dispute ?

[Joe Bausch]

Mike & TEPaul,

I haven't read this thread, but will tonight or tomorrow.

It was my understanding that Flynn did the Pines course and Ross did the Bay course..

What part of that is in dispute ?

Flynn did nine holes of the Pines course, Gordon later the other nine.

The more interesting story is the architectural history of the Bay course.  Ron Whitten wrote a few years back about it in Golf Digest.  I've since dug up much more about it to strongly suggest Hugh Wilson was the architect, then very soon after it opened Ross was called in to 'toughen it up'.  Mike's thread here I think shows that not all of what Ross proposed was carried out.  And I believe that Whitten found a 1918 AC newspaper article that said this in the sub-headline ""Hugh Wilson laid out course and Ross did the trapping". 

Here is a link to his article:

http://web.archive.org/web/20061211091729/http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/critic/index.ssf?/courses/critic/seaview.html

[Mike Cirba]

For those heading down to Seaview Bay course this weekend, some light reading.

I'm still 50/50, depending on timing of some other things...remain hopeful.

And here's a great photo of what the greens there USED to look like when they were renowned at opening day.

[Mark McKeever]

That green looks awesome!!

Mark

[Joe Bausch]

For those heading down to Seaview Bay course this weekend, some light reading.

I'm still 50/50, depending on timing of some other things...remain hopeful.

I'm spoken to the director of golf Mike and he has made special accommodations such that your gas-powered cart will have a direct T1 line connection to the GCA server with priority posting rights to the NGLA thread. 

[Mike Cirba]

Joe,

D*MN YOU!!

You forgot to include the winsome, nattily-dressed, female cart-assistant to continue typing my posts while I'm having to hit shots!!!  

That's it...I'm pulling out!   You can take your William Robinson/Hugh Wilson course and shove it while i pursue more noble matters on GCA.  

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Mike, to ask a question pertaining to your picture, is it possible the greens settled over time, or do you think the relative lack of internal contour of most is due to the greens being softened over time?

[Mike Cirba]

Doug,

The greens have shrunk considerably, such that many of the mounds around today's greens used to be internal to them.   

Also, a number have flat out changed or been moved over the years.

There were a number of hands in the pie after the original Wilson/Robinson design, including Donald Ross, Wilfrid Reid, Tillinghast, William and David Gordon, and Bob Cupp, at minimum.

Still, there are lots of cool architectural features remaining, the original routing remains and if we get the chance to discuss Sunday I can try to let folks know what changed on the internals of some holes.

One sad fact though is that the greens were absolutely renowned as wild, creative affairs when opened, which would surprise anyone playing there today.

[Kyle Harris]

Doug,

The greens have shrunk considerably, such that many of the mounds around today's greens used to be internal to them.   

Also, a number have flat out changed or been moved over the years.

There were a number of hands in the pie after the original Wilson/Robinson design, including Donald Ross, Wilfrid Reid, Tillinghast, William and David Gordon, and Bob Cupp, at minimum.

Still, there are lots of cool architectural features remaining, the original routing remains and if we get the chance to discuss Sunday I can try to let folks know what changed on the internals of some holes.

One sad fact though is that the greens were absolutely renowned as wild, creative affairs when opened, which would surprise anyone playing there today.

Mike:

It'll be interesting to see which of the so-called lost internal contours are still mowed at today's fairway height. It's entirely possible that the mounds are being cut at the same exact height they were 90 years ago, only the shorter cut "putting surface" has been added.

[Mike Cirba]

Kyle,

It's difficult to tell exactly, but this picture of the 18th green from 1914 seems to show a green surface in the front cut slightly shorter.

You can also see how some of the contour was within that cut.   We can look at the original photo on Sunday instead of this glared copy.

Thanks.

[Kyle Harris]

Right. I see that.

My point is, many putting surfaces in that era were cut at heights that are closer to today's fairway heights. In fact, I don't think any putting greens were cut shorter than .250 before the depression.

It's entirely possible that any of these mounds cut at today's fairway heights (.350-.500) are playing very similar to the original height of cut of the putting greens.

[Mike Cirba]

Kyle,

Gotcha,

All,

Not sure if this will work but if it does you can compare aerials from 1931 and today (as well as year's in between) by sliding the cursor.

Note the changes to the sizes of greens, and in some cases their locations.

http://www.historicaerials.com/aerials.php?scale=1.405439689074E-05&lat=39.4491090315672&lon=-74.4671510378485&year=1931


***EDIT***Ok, it requires some intervention on your part.   Click on "Compare" and select "Slide".

By default it will compare 1931 with the most recent from 2006.

You can adjust the years on either side, and use the slider to move the picture across for a very cool comparison.