News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« on: December 29, 2008, 12:47:48 AM »
I received George Bahto's "The Evangelist of Golf" for Christmas from Santa and just finished it this evening.

I am sure the book has been discussed often on the site so I will specifically discuss the many fascinating details, insights, facts or stories that were presented by the author in this great work.

I would, however, suggest to anyone on the site who has not read the book (I realize I may be the only laggard . . .) to make sure they do at some point because it brings so much of what is discussed on this site into perspective and can only stir your passion about GCA even further.

Big thanks to George, Gib, and everyone else who had some part in the project - really learning about CBM, SR and the birth of golf in America was fantastic (and long overdue for me).

Chapeau gentlemen!

Ryan Farrow

Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2008, 01:02:35 AM »
I lost interest in CB Mac after I read HIS book.

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2008, 01:15:42 AM »
Is that because he was such an arrogant prick or because it was badly written?

My favorite element of the Bahto book was the detailed hole/strategy descriptions, followed by summaries of the major works of CBM and SR.

I have not read CBMs book and it is not on my shortlist.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2008, 07:43:01 AM »
I first read Scotland`s Gift in 1977 but didn`t truly understand it.  I think I would read GB book first for context if studying CBM.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Rich Goodale

Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2008, 08:24:30 AM »
I lost interest in CB Mac after I read HIS book.

Ryan

Was that "Scotland's Gift--ME!!!"?

Rich

Ryan Farrow

Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2008, 11:50:18 AM »
HAHAHA! Yes, it was Rich.

Glad I'm not the only one who feels the same way about him.

Rob, does the book detail out all of the templates, and originals he so magnificently copied because he thought every great idea in golf course design had already been built?

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2008, 12:22:48 PM »
Rob,
It's a well edited and in depth look at CBM. I think Jeff's advice should be followed: read George's book, then read Macdonald's.

I'm saying nothing new, but Macdonald was a larger-than-life figure and this made him an easy target, although he probably figured that most people who were going to take a shot at him would be firing blanks.  ;D

Whatever his human failings, it's interesting to see that all of his works still garner praise in our time. It also speaks well of the man to see that one of golf's smartest modern day developers is willing to spend several millions of dollars to build a course using CBM's principles.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2008, 12:23:15 PM »
Ryan,

It details out all of the key design ideas he brought stateside from Scotland and specifically discusses each hole at NGLA, before providing a nice overview of the holes CBM and SR constructed at many of their other courses such as Piping Rock, Lido, Yale, etc.

At NGLA there are "Macdonald originals", which tend to blend elements of other holes but are unique to that course. I believe the original "Cape" idea was Macdonald's for example. Then there are other holes that are "template" holes such as Redan, Short, etc.

I am not debating that CBM thought he was God's gift to the world.

Having never seen any of the CBM or SR designs, it was pretty amazing to be able to read through such a wealth of information in one place. The WAOG is awesome but obviously covers hundreds of courses, this is a little more focused on each course so more details come out.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2008, 01:55:18 PM »
I am one of those who read Uncle George's book (with skillful editing by Gib Papazian) first and then was interested enough to follow with CBM's autobiographical work.  I was fascinated by both.  CBM's stories of St Andrews in the 19th Century, followed by the early days of golf in America, are very interesting reading.  True, the old boy was a bit of a bore, but his central position in the development of our favorite game must be studied in order to learn why we play on the courses we play, and how the game grew to be in the hands of the USGA.

It's hard to imagine US golf without NGLA as the genesis of interesting courses, and that was certainly due in the majority to CBM's importing of concepts and his ability to raise funds to build a number of important early courses.

It's also fun to read between the lines about the early battles in the elevated spheres of American golf administration!

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2008, 11:54:42 PM »
Bill,
I was amazed at the wealth of information that George dug up about CB and his boys.

If you ask me, he's Tenacious G.  :o
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2008, 12:01:32 AM »

I lost interest in CB Mac after I read HIS book.


Then go back and read it again.

"Scotland's Gift" was written in 1928, and was virtually light years ahead of its time.

Rich Goodale

Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2008, 12:06:52 AM »

I lost interest in CB Mac after I read HIS book.


Then go back and read it again.

"Scotland's Gift" was written in 1928, and was virtually light years ahead of its time.


Hi Pat

Merry Chirstmas and Happy New year

"Virtually" is the operative word.  CBM could do great golf course architecture but he was hopeless at writing.  What did he read at St. Andrews in 1872?  Self Aggrandizement 101?

Rich

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2008, 12:20:46 AM »
If CB was half as inscrutable, obtuse, and indecipherable verbally as he was in print, is it any wonder that Hugh Wilson built such half-assed, unrecognizable redan and alps holes as he did at Merion?   ;)  ;D

Ryan Farrow

Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2008, 02:50:26 AM »

I lost interest in CB Mac after I read HIS book.


Then go back and read it again.

"Scotland's Gift" was written in 1928, and was virtually light years ahead of its time.


I have read the Mackenzie, Thomas, Tillinghast, & Ross books. I would re-read any of the first three, the Ross and Macdonald books are really a step down. And if anyone was ahead of his time it was Mackenzie.

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2008, 03:01:01 AM »
Ryan,

What would your reco be for next GCA book to read?
Unless the GCA is a good writer, I would probably prefer to read something that focuses more on his works.

Thanks

Tom Naccarato

Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2008, 03:08:30 AM »
Ryan,
Your a friend and I'm not going to be extra critical here, but honestly, you need to open your mind up.

Was C.B. an arrogant, self-centered SOB? Absolutely! But that's the man. Judge the architecture.

Ryan Farrow

Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2008, 11:53:58 AM »
Rob, I am turning into a big Colt fan after reading/looking through the planet golf book and World Atlas. So I am probably picking up "Creating Classics: The Golf Courses of Harry Colt" when it comes out. (I don't think he has had any books published?) Hopefully I don't have to wait to much longer to check out his work in the Isles.


Tommy, what irks me the most about CB is not that he was a D-bag, its that his reasoning for using template holes was shallow.

Answer this: If every architect thought the same way Mac did, would you love golf/architecture as much as you do today?

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2008, 12:30:20 PM »

I lost interest in CB Mac after I read HIS book.


Then go back and read it again.

"Scotland's Gift" was written in 1928, and was virtually light years ahead of its time.


Hi Pat

Merry Chirstmas and Happy New year

"Virtually" is the operative word.  CBM could do great golf course architecture but he was hopeless at writing.  What did he read at St. Andrews in 1872?  Self Aggrandizement 101?



Rich,

What auto-biographical writings aren't tainted with elevating the author or are absent a presentation from a skewed perspective ?

The body of the work contained in "Scotland's Gift" doesn't focus on CBM.

If Ryan chooses to fixate upon isolated passages and ignore the balance of the text, that's the fault of the reader, not the author.


 

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2008, 12:33:52 PM »

I have read the Mackenzie, Thomas, Tillinghast, & Ross books.

I would re-read any of the first three, the Ross and Macdonald books are really a step down. And if anyone was ahead of his time it was Mackenzie.


Ryan, I have those books, but, not in front of me.

Could you cite the dates that the books by Dr M, Thomas, AWT and DR were written.

Thanks

Tom Naccarato

Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2008, 12:50:08 PM »
Ryan,
Shallow? How So?

Are you going off of Raynor work here or actual C.B. MacDonald work with Seth Raynor?

I seem to think you've seen, maybe even played Fox Hollow (Raynor) but how many actual MacDonald courses have you actually seen in person. You don't have to play them, but actually see them and the architecture? (I do in fact trust your eye to some great extent.)

So much shite is made of this template hole stuff; honestly I don't see what is wrong with being inspired, or emulating certain features which make the Sport great. It isn't unlike a great rock song. Take any of the great masters of classic rock from the 60's and 70's and they "play" homage to the great bluesmen of a previous day. Its no different with great golf architecture.

Take for instance, George C. Thomas and Riviera #4, which happens to be--still--one of the best Redans I've ever played. I love that hole. I still think that there is a great possibility that Bel Air's once famous Mae West-hole was nothing less then inspired by an Alps. Pick-up Thomas' book and see the images he has of the National Golf Course in Southampton. The point to this is that, in America, there had to be inspiration--a starting point from which to build golf in this country--interesting golf. That is the connection. There were other courses before National that showed great moxie for their time--Myopia Hunt Club; Maidstone and many others. But Golf took to this Nation like an epidemic and CBM saw it sort of losing it lustor because it was being misunderstood. An effort to change the Sport--make it totally fair was afoot by powers that be could be uncontrollable--the American mindset who didn't know the Sport. It would be no different then stepping on to a baseball diamond and rewriting the rules of baseball to some extent. CBM's entire purpose for Scotland's Gift: Golf was to show the aspects he saw of it from his vantage point; his time. This man used to play Golf with Young Tom, Old Tom, and many others. He was fortunate to have been there and done that and better, showed America how to play it.

A major problem with all of us is that we want answers to our questions; and Scotland's Gift doesn't get it done for some because they can only view the man as the bombastic character that he was. Yet, CBM is putting it into his words for you to see. Your just not seeing it--yet. (and you will see it eventually) It's almost like trying to understand ancient sandscript for some. But honestly, I view this book as not only important, but gives an idea of what he went through. Here's my point: In the architecture section, which most skip immediately because they was architectural answers, a great majority of the readers don't get what they want to fulfill them. They want details, and C.B. fell short of that for some. Me, I read the details and understood each and everyone of them. The point being that politics just as much drives the architecture; sometimes unfortunate luck. And that is the problem with Golf in America, that to play Golf the right way was to embrace the ideas and principles and going from there. At the end, that would be American Golf; just like in Australia, they have Australian Golf and in Japan, they had Japanese Golf. Its different, no different then having a meal of authentic Japanese food.

That to me is what CBM was writing about.


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2008, 02:20:08 PM »
...
Tommy, what irks me the most about CB is not that he was a D-bag, its(sic) that his reasoning for using template holes was shallow.
...

Interesting assertion. As a former college prof, I am now expecting the supporting essay.
;)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2008, 02:21:41 PM by Garland Bayley »
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2008, 04:20:17 PM »
Quote
....."I am now expecting the supporting essay".-GB

I can't wait.  ::)
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2008, 04:34:57 PM »

Tommy, what irks me the most about CB is not that he was a D-bag, its that his reasoning for using template holes was shallow.

Which CBM courses have you played ?

What was his reasoning for using EACH of the following template/holes:

Alps
Long
Valley
Plateau
Double Plateau
Bottle
Road
Short
Eden
Redan
Biarritz
Knoll
Leven
Punchbowl
Cape

Lastly, how do they NOT fit into each of his courses ?



Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2008, 05:29:44 PM »
Ryan

I think you would really enjoy GBs book, even if you skip all the Macdonald historical chapters.

What CBM and Raynor did was amazing - their courses have absolutely stood the test of time and I don't think many of them would fall under the Matt Ward "they are still they because they are old" category. They used some template holes but also created others based on the land they were given (for the most part - not that they did not move dirt like at Lido).

Just my opinion and I do not claim to be an expert.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2008, 06:02:55 PM »
Patrick:

I'll help Ryan with his homework, just today, because he probably doesn't have all those books in front of me.

Macdonald's book was published in 1926.

Thomas' book in 1927.

MacKenzie's original book was published in 1920, but Ryan is probably referring to the one he wrote in 1932 that wasn't published until the 1990's.

(Ryan didn't include them, but Colt & Alison wrote their book in 1920, and Tom Simpson wrote his with H.N. Wethered in 1929.)

Tillighast and Ross never actually wrote their own books ... what Ryan refers to are collections of articles from the 1920's that were put together more recently.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back