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Ryan Farrow

Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2008, 06:08:03 PM »
I'm not falling into your little trap guys. Nice try.


NOWHERE did I say anything bad about his golf courses. I made a comment based on his writing. When I get back home I will be happy to provide the quote I speak of...

I just think his philosophical approach to golf course design was seriously flawed. The gestalt of his message was, there are no more original ideas to introduce to golf course design, so lets follow the tested and true ones...  that is all I am trying to say.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2008, 06:18:12 PM »
Ryan,

Firstly, way to drop a d-bag bomb.  Epic!  One of my faves.  I am on your side on this, I too find CBMac's writing drab.

I can't wholeheartedly agree with you, however, regarding his design philosophy.  I don't think the Gestalt of his philosophy was there are no more unique ideas, I think it was there are no better ideas than what has already been laid down.

Sort of an "if it ain't broke don't fix it" sorta thinking.
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

jkinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2008, 06:28:02 PM »
Ryan Farrow - I must say that you're the first design associate that I've ever heard call CBM a D-bag with shallow reasoning !! WOW. As someone who's had the great privilege of having played nearly 500 rounds at NGLA, let's just say that my opinions couldn't be more opposed, both about the man and his design. I revere both.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2008, 06:37:53 PM »
Ryan, with eyes wide open, stepped into his own pile of doo-doo. The original post had nothing to do with what one thought about Macdonald, it was praise for George's book.

He hadn't even read George's book, his appearance on this thread was only to take a cheap shot  (i.e., comparing him to a douche bag) and make a snarky remark ot two about CBM.

I hope he's a young man so that he has time to see the error of his ways.
 ;D

 

  
« Last Edit: December 30, 2008, 06:41:30 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2008, 06:39:17 PM »
Ryan Farrow - I must say that you're the first design associate that I've ever heard call CBM a D-bag with shallow reasoning !! WOW. As someone who's had the great privilege of having played nearly 500 rounds at NGLA, let's just say that my opinions couldn't be more opposed, both about the man and his design. I revere both.


Well, surely you are not biased, right???

I love the story how after losing the big tourney CB Mac came back and said, "Oh no, that was not the real tourney."

Yet it was the real one when he won.   Uh, okay? :o
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2008, 06:41:02 PM »
Ryan, I tend to agree w/ Dugger. I just think CBM believed in tried and true design philosophies that he saw in the UK. Otherwise, why would he heap such praise on Pine Valley when first seeing it, a course that was cutting edge for it's time?


I don't agree that his writing was drab, however. Bombastic? Pompous? Perhaps. But I find his thoughts on design and the game in general interesting.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2008, 06:43:30 PM »
Ryan, with eyes wide open, stepped into his own pile of doo-doo. The original post had nothing to do with what one thought about Macdonald, it was praise for George's book.

He hadn't even read George's book, his appearance on this thread was only to take a cheap shot  (i.e., comparing CBM to a douche bag) and make a snarky remark ot two about CBM.

I hope he's a young man so that he has time to see the error of his ways.
 ;D

Oh come on, Jim, CB Mac has been dead for ages.

douchebag......."gruff"........is there really a difference?

I think maybe Barney has been right all along; all the ass kissing on this site of these old dead guys really gets old sometimes.  Seems they are held up on these lofty pedestals without any real justification outside of their role in building golf courses.

Mackenzie was probably a jackass too, but he sure made great golf courses!  

These guys designed and built some golf courses, something rather ordinary, even blasphemous, to those of us who are not members of this website. 

 
« Last Edit: December 30, 2008, 06:55:08 PM by Michael Dugger »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2008, 06:50:42 PM »
Michael,
You did see the smiley?

The only difference between ass kissing & brown nosing is depth perception.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2008, 07:01:44 PM »
The only difference between ass kissing & brown nosing is depth perception.

I like that.  I'm gonna use that one....
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2008, 07:02:09 PM »
The Bahto book is awesome, though, epic read.
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2008, 07:14:23 PM »
...
I think maybe Barney has been right all along; all the ass kissing on this site of these old dead guys really gets old sometimes.  Seems they are held up on these lofty pedestals without any real justification outside of their role in building golf courses.
...

So where would you rather plant your kisser? On RTJ, or on CBM? ;) Fortunately, we now have some guys that rediscovered what CBM and others knew before.

Oh, wait a minute! You are alligning yourself with Barney! I guess it's off to see the Fazio for you and your kisser.  ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2008, 07:17:54 PM »
...
I just think his philosophical approach to golf course design was seriously flawed. The gestalt of his message was, there are no more original ideas to introduce to golf course design, so lets follow the tested and true ones...  that is all I am trying to say.

So you're saying TD has been wasting his time building Redans and such like during his career? Does not Tom often write I got the idea for that X from Y?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kyle Harris

Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2008, 07:23:37 PM »
...
I just think his philosophical approach to golf course design was seriously flawed. The gestalt of his message was, there are no more original ideas to introduce to golf course design, so lets follow the tested and true ones...  that is all I am trying to say.

So you're saying TD has been wasting his time building Redans and such like during his career? Does not Tom often write I got the idea for that X from Y?


Garland,

But how often does he say, "I got the idea for X from X?"

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2008, 07:40:31 PM »
There was a young man named Farrow,
who fired a verbal arrow;
He took his best shot,
now look what he’s got;
‘nough crap to fill a wheelbarrow.

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2008, 07:52:35 PM »
The only difference between ass kissing & brown nosing is depth perception.

Quote
I like that.  I'm gonna use that one....-M. Dugger

Michael,
Feel free to use it, but I must warn you, that's a composite joke made up from a couple of templates because as we know, there aren't any new jokes.  ;) 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Kyle Harris

Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2008, 07:54:51 PM »
There was a young man named Farrow,
who fired a verbal arrow;
He took his best shot,
now look what he’s got;
‘nough crap to fill a wheelbarrow.


...and what about this man name Jim
Whose wit was running quite thin
Not unlike the time
I used weak feminine rhyme
To point out the laugh shared just by him!

 ;) :D ;D ;)

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2008, 08:09:47 PM »
Ryan,

You may not have specifically pooped on any of his courses, but I am having a tough time figuring out how someone with a flawed approach to golf course design can create some outstanding courses and also apprentice someone who created many more?

If his design principles were flawed or past on stupid assumptions, then should his courses not be flawed as well?

Where would you put CBM in the GCA pantheon?

I understand your sentiments about CBMs attitude, inability to lose, etc. He was certainly a bit of a baby, but he also had the vision to create a golf course that set the precedent for all of those in America that would come after it.

I am not trying to pick a fight, just understand your perspective. it certainly provides food for thought.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2008, 08:20:21 PM »
Ryan, with eyes wide open, stepped into his own pile of doo-doo. The original post had nothing to do with what one thought about Macdonald, it was praise for George's book.

He hadn't even read George's book, his appearance on this thread was only to take a cheap shot  (i.e., comparing CBM to a douche bag) and make a snarky remark ot two about CBM.

I hope he's a young man so that he has time to see the error of his ways.
 ;D

 
   Seems they are held up on these lofty pedestals without any real justification outside of their role in building golf courses.

  

 

Well, what else is there when it comes down to it, Michael? When their work is surpassed, then we'll have something to talk about. Until then, we have some that have embraced the ideas of these "old dead guys" as you call them and put their own ideas to use in conjunction with them. And the funny thing is, the ones that have embraced these classical ideas are the ones that are producing the best courses today. If it wasn't wasn't for these "old dead guys", many of these designers today would not have a blueprint to refer to. I'm not saying they wouldn't be successful without them, but I'm sure they would admit that they are better architects because of learning from them.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

TEPaul

Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2008, 08:49:56 PM »
TomD:

Actually Macdonald's book was published in 1928 by Scribner & Sons. I have no idea whether he intended to write it anyway at that time but the fact is he had a huge blowout with Herbert Dean at The Creek Club in the fall of 1926 over major problems on the lower holes and Charlie resigned from the club giving the reason that he wanted to go to his cottage in Bermuda to write a book.

Tom Dunne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2008, 09:26:41 PM »
"I know he [Horace Hutchinson] impressed on me that the human mind could not devise undulations superior to those of nature, saying that if I wished to make undulations on the greens to take a number of pebbles in my hand and drop them on a miniature space representing a putting green on a small scale and as they dropped on the diagram, place the undulations according to their fall. This I did for some of the National greens where I had no copies of the original undulations which nature had made on the great greens of the world." --Charles Blair Macdonald

This was the first thing I laid my eyes on when I opened my copy of "The Evangelist of Golf" today. I can pretty much guarantee I wouldn't have gotten something as good if I'd opened "Scotland's Gift" to a random page. I was already thinking that Ryan was being overly dismissive of the amount of creativity and new thinking that CBM and his mates must have needed to bring the best of the templates out on sites as diverse as Yale, Mid-Ocean, Chicago, NGLA, etc., etc.

Luckily, of course, we have none other than Tom Doak engaged in this very process as we speak!

The funny thing about this thread is that I sincerely wonder if Ryan would have a different take on CBM if he'd read George Bahto's book first instead of "Scotland's Gift." That's the great thing about history--with the benefit of the passage of time, the intermediary, the historian, culls the source material in search of the most valuable (and accessible!) fragments that can be passed along to the reader/student.

In many cases this degree of separation is needed to get the desired perspective on a subject. We're all the star of our own show, and it's not easy to take a step back and talk about your life or your career without sounding like a twit--especially if you've been successful, as then you run the risk of sounding grandiose. This is the case whether you're a good writer or not, and this is why biographies are frequently (though not always) more useful than autobiographies.  

This thread has a lot to do with history and how we engage with it, how our encounters with different texts can set the tone for subsequent readings. We're fortunate to be able to have the conversation, though, in terms of measuring the ideas alongside their finished works. It's harder with George Thomas, and impossible with Max Behr.

Anyway, I hope all of this hasn't just been a roundabout way of agreeing with the title of this thread! But I really do think Bahto's book is utterly essential not just to understanding Macdonald's architecture, but to understanding the origins of golf in America.







Patrick_Mucci_Jr

Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #45 on: December 30, 2008, 09:44:39 PM »
I'm not falling into your little trap guys. Nice try.


NOWHERE did I say anything bad about his golf courses. I made a comment based on his writing. When I get back home I will be happy to provide the quote I speak of...

I just think his philosophical approach to golf course design was seriously flawed.

The gestalt of his message was, there are no more original ideas to introduce to golf course design, so lets follow the tested and true ones... that is all I am trying to say.


Then what you're trying to say is incorrect

If that was true, he'd never have designed and built an original hole.

Had you played any of his golf courses you would have discovered that he designed and built a variety of holes that weren't templates, that were originals.

So, your interpretation of his writings is grossly incorrect

Mike_Cirba

Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #46 on: December 30, 2008, 09:50:18 PM »
Wow...I guess this is the first time I've come to understand that neither Macdonald nor Emmett sketched green contours.

That's pretty amazing to consider from a strategic standpoint.   It's almost like saying that there is nothing on the internal of a green that can affect overall strategy back to the tee.

Am I missing something?

BTW, Ryan...Macdonald was a Giant, and almost single-handedly wrestled golf in America into a more enlightened endeavor.

Folks like Emmett already knew what he did but they didn't have his force of personality or prescient vision.

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #47 on: December 30, 2008, 10:06:55 PM »
Edited by author, who did too much reading on the train tonight, and of the wrong kind.

« Last Edit: December 30, 2008, 10:11:02 PM by Peter Pallotta »

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #48 on: December 30, 2008, 10:29:18 PM »
Ryan Farrow - I must say that you're the first design associate that I've ever heard call CBM a D-bag with shallow reasoning !! WOW. As someone who's had the great privilege of having played nearly 500 rounds at NGLA, let's just say that my opinions couldn't be more opposed, both about the man and his design. I revere both.


Pretty solid praise for an architect that's so unoriginal.  ;D

"Evangelist " is a magnificent book, especially for those that are interested in both golf architecture and history.  Be warned, though, that the urge to visit NGLA is pretty much irresistible after just one reading....

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Evangelist of Golf - Read it!
« Reply #49 on: December 30, 2008, 10:49:13 PM »
Mike Cirba:

Not sure I understand your post.  I often don't do sketches of contouring for greens, either, but I am certainly aware that our contours can and should affect the approach shot and where it ought to come from.  And I'm pretty sure Macdonald felt that way also ... his green for the Alps at National does bear some similarities to the one at Prestwick, with the high back right portion.

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