[Garland Bayley]

'Tabacco Road, along with Bandon Dunes and Black Mesa in Santa Fe, New Mexico is one of the three most architecturally important courses to open in this country since Sawgrass." Jay Flemma, "Tobacco Road Golf Club, USA and Pulp Fiction: years ahead of their time", in Golf Architecture, vol. 4, Paul Daley, ed.


I have to wonder how Black Mesa beat out Sand Pines, how Bandon Dunes beat out Pacific Dunes, and how Bandon Dunes and Black Mesa came to be in Sante Fe, NM.

I also am curious as to what others think are the three most achitecturally important courses since Sawgrass.

From what I have read, it seems to me that Sand Hills has to be at the top of the list. Minimallism applied at the coast line without American chauvanism suggests Cape Kidnappers, and Barnbougle are quite significant too, so pick one of them. Finally, perhaps a totally manufactured course in the home of golf, the Castle Course, could round out the important three.

[Chip Gaskins]

Far and away Sand Hills has to be at the top of the list.

Then (in no particular order)...

Pacific Dunes
Pete Dye Golf Club
Chambers Bay

Honorable Mention:
Tobacco Road
Rawls Course - Texas Tech

[Jim_Kennedy]

Garland,
I would add Shadow Creek to Sand Hills, and my third would be East Lake, THE model for how well a golf course can turn around a community.

I'd add a 4th, Old Works. It too has aided it's community and it also shows how beneficial a golf course can be to the environment.

[Joel_Stewart]

Sand Hills (nuff said)

Bandon Dunes (one of the great developments in golf history)

Sebonic (sleeper course.  Built where nobody thought possible, super expensive and built with two architects that seem like salt and pepper).

[David Stamm]

If the critieria is architecture, Sand Hills seems a no brainer. Pacific Dunes, Friars Head seem like no brainers as well and I would throw Rustic Canyon in the mix too.

[Bradley Anderson]

1) Sand Hills

2) Sebonic

The third is a toss up between a lot of courses

[Andy Troeger]

As much as I love Black Mesa, I'm not sure that its had a huge effect on other designs. I wish it would have more of an effect.

Bandon Dunes I agree with, because had Bandon not succeeded and been a wonderful design you likely wouldn't have seen more courses built and the resort become so successful. Perhaps that's wrong, but even if Pacific is better, Bandon Dunes by being first is a logical choice.

Tobacco Road, like it or not, also doesn't seem to have had huge implications for design as a whole. Mike Strantz' work seems to be pretty unique still.

I do think to be significant a course has to be seen by at least a fair amount of people--it has to influence the design of other courses (or at least that's the way I'm reading the category)--Friar's Head looks amazing but how many people really get to see it?

I like the inclusion of Shadow Creek. Like it or not, its had HUGE implications for the design of other courses over the past 20 years. From a numbers perspective, it may have been THE most influential design of them all.

Sand Hills also seems to be a reasonable choice considering the number of other "destination" clubs that have appeared since its inception.

Since that was all over the place--I'm going with Bandon Dunes, Shadow Creek, and Sand Hills as my three choices. I limited it to American courses since that's what I'm familiar with and that's all the original quotation included.

[Jay Flemma]

Garland, I was strictly discussing public.

[Andy Troeger]

Given the public only restriction, I'd stick with Bandon Dunes and Shadow Creek obviously.

And have no clue what I'd add as the third one. I hate to add a third super expensive resort type course. Given that, Black Mesa might not be an awful choice as a reasonable sub-$100 alternative. I don't think enough people have really seen it though for it to have had a big effect yet. I'd have to give that one more thought...

[Phil McDade]

Sand Hills also seems to be a reasonable choice considering the number of other "destination" clubs that have appeared since its inception.

Andy:

Would you say the same thing if Sand Hills was somehow able to be transported to the suburbs of Cleveland?

Is Sand Hills more "architecturally important," or more important as an untried model (building a course literally in the middle of nowhere, with limited membership and guest play) that has apparently succeeded?

To my way of thinking, only Ballyneal really compares as the latter. Bandon may be on a desolate stretch of the Oregon coast, but it's relatively accessible to millions of folks on the West Coast.

[Tom Dunne]

Architecturally important in and of itself or based on its influence on future developments? Or are these one and the same? I think Sebonack is a landmark course, but it was such a different project in terms of its double design team (not unprecedented, but unusual) and the historic property next door to Shinnecock and NGLA, that it's hard to see future developers thinking of that as a direct model. Sort of like Bayonne--cool course, definite success story for Eric Bergstol, but who in his right mind would want to repeat that process?

Rustic Canyon and Chambers Bay are both gainers down the line as different public course models that I think we will see others try to emulate.

[Jay Flemma]

Chambers was built after I wrote that, but is it fair to say Bandon/Pacific may have paved the way for Chambers?  I happen to think Pacific is a better course than Bandon, so that's why I gave it the nod.

[Ryan Farrow]

Bandon, Sandhills, Chambers, Ballyneal's of the world - For "destination golf"

Tobacco Road - For bringing the ART back to golf course design. (might also throw in the use of waste bunkers in modern golf course design? Not sure if the time line is right for this.... any architects wish to fess up?)

Shadow Creek - For being the poster child of unsustainable golf and excessive water use.

[Jay Flemma]

Ryan, would you give the nod to World Woods for making waste bunkers accessible again?  It was a pr4ecurser to TR, (although strantz didn't work on that one...)

[Phil McDade]

Bandon, Sandhills, Chambers, Ballyneal's of the world - For "destination golf"

Ryan:

How does Chambers qualify as a "destination" course? It's located within the 15th largest metro area in the country...

Surprised no one yet has mentioned Whistling Straits or Erin Hills -- two courses built specifically with the goal of hosting major championships. Aren't they paving the way for the future locales of majors, given the (so far) unrestrained advances of technology that will make most classic-era courses unsuitable for majors?

[Ryan Farrow]

Jay, I'm sure we could reach back even further and pull out a few courses? But in the end I think more people would think of Tobacco Road before World Woods when it comes to waste bunkers. But you may be right, maybe we could pair them up.... unless someone thinks of a better example.

[Ryan Farrow]

Bandon, Sandhills, Chambers, Ballyneal's of the world - For "destination golf"

Ryan:

How does Chambers qualify as a "destination" course? It's located within the 15th largest metro area in the country...

Surprised no one yet has mentioned Whistling Straits or Erin Hills -- two courses built specifically with the goal of hosting major championships. Aren't they paving the way for the future locales of majors, given the (so far) unrestrained advances of technology that will make most classic-era courses unsuitable for majors?

Many reasons.... but the 2 most notable are the price and the epic scale of the place.

IMO it was designed to attract people from all over.....not just 1 market. The course is big and bold and screams you need to come check me out. Very few courses, have that same message.

[Phil McDade]

Bandon, Sandhills, Chambers, Ballyneal's of the world - For "destination golf"

Ryan:

How does Chambers qualify as a "destination" course? It's located within the 15th largest metro area in the country...

Surprised no one yet has mentioned Whistling Straits or Erin Hills -- two courses built specifically with the goal of hosting major championships. Aren't they paving the way for the future locales of majors, given the (so far) unrestrained advances of technology that will make most classic-era courses unsuitable for majors?

Many reasons.... but the 2 most notable are the price and the epic scale of the place.

IMO it was designed to attract people from all over.....not just 1 market. The course is big and bold and screams you need to come check me out. Very few courses, have that same message.

Sounds like Whistling Straits........

Confused about the "price" reference. How so?

[Tom Dunne]

There are a few components that seem to be in play here, and they're intertwined to various degrees from case to case.

1.) The golf course. What is on the ground. The design and its features.
2.) The process. The business model. The significance of the total story it tells. What the place has come to represent in golfers' minds.
3.) The degree to which numbers 1 and 2 influenced subsequent projects, and will continue to inform future projects.

So, Jay, yes, I do think it's hard to picture Chambers Bay without the framework established by Bandon/Pacific. Part of that is architecture and a course aesthetic that capitalized on the beauty of the Pacific Northwest. But John Ladenburg also said the seed for Chambers was planted by his watching the US Open at Bethpage Black. So it's a combination of things. In any case, I don't take issue with one assigning such significance to Bandon/Pacific.

[Jay Flemma]

Tom, you could have hit on another facet as well, yes, the public Open courser...even though that wasn't it's intent when it was built.  Jones once said to me he built places on the model of being good enough to vie for getting an Open, then when it wasn't the primary goal, then it goes and does it.

[Adam Clayman]

Tom Dunne, You could also add the architects. A course could be architecturally important because it started a career or furthered one.

I'd like to think the important courses are Wild Horse, Rustic Canyon and Pinon Hills. Mostly due to the quality of the final product versus the costs associated with achieving that product. A bang for buck indicator.

In the lean times we're in, I see these as important criterion. An indication of Bang for buck, with the buck on the front end. (Cost to create)

[Mike Sweeney]

I would add in the new Oakmont. I believe that their tree clearing and the Golf Digest article was that significant to golf design.

[Adam Clayman]

Sweens. Wouldn't that be more of a maintenance issue? As far as design changes, are the added or moved bunkers really that significant to be considered universally praised or emulated for public course use?

[Andy Troeger]

Sand Hills also seems to be a reasonable choice considering the number of other "destination" clubs that have appeared since its inception.

Andy:

Would you say the same thing if Sand Hills was somehow able to be transported to the suburbs of Cleveland?

Is Sand Hills more "architecturally important," or more important as an untried model (building a course literally in the middle of nowhere, with limited membership and guest play) that has apparently succeeded?

To my way of thinking, only Ballyneal really compares as the latter. Bandon may be on a desolate stretch of the Oregon coast, but it's relatively accessible to millions of folks on the West Coast.

I am going on the "isolated" bit--but I haven't been there either so I'm admittedly selecting it because its the top ranked modern course as well. It seems to have been more successful than any of the courses that have copied it. Kingsley Club and Ballyneal are probably the most prominent, but I think there are quite a few others out west that are in the middle of nowhere. Some of them are too new to really evaluate from a financial success perspective--Rock Creek, Cornerstone just to name a couple.

[cary lichtenstein]

Sand Hills

Tobacco Road

Whistling Straits

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