[Garland Bayley]

...
I'd like to think the important courses are Wild Horse, Rustic Canyon and Pinon Hills. Mostly due to the quality of the final product versus the costs associated with achieving that product. A bang for buck indicator.
...

Interesting new mention Adam.
I have to wonder if Black Mesa would even exist without the success of Pinon Hills.

[JESII]

There seems to be a large sentiment in favor of Tobacco Road...why TR above Royal New Kent?

[Garland Bayley]

Garland, I was strictly discussing public.

OK, I'll revise my list.

The first and most important application of minimalism in the US seems to be Sand Hills. But, since it is private, it is now disqualified. It paved they way for Bandon, but diminishes Bandon's contribution. Therefore, the export of the new golden age of minimalism to Barnbougle would now top my list.

It seems to me that Shadow Creek was in many ways a natural succession of the American predilection to construction. However, exporting the construction of the landforms for golf to the home of golf is tres significant. The Castle Course is second on my list.

I am not familiar with Tobacco Road, but I guess I can let it share bi-coastal honors with Rustic Canyon for third place on my list. Rustic is certainly significant for bringing very high quality, low cost construction to the municipal golf scene. (But then maybe Pinon Hills should take the lead here.)

[PCCraig]

I think my 3 would be the following;

1) Bandon- the first isolated destination course. It proved that if the GCA was good enough, the golfers would follow.

2) Whistling Straights- a course that was built from an old air strip for the purpose of holding majors.

3) Bethpage Black re-design- allowed for the first true public US Open course and paved the way for Torrey Pines, Chambers Bay, and the possible Erin Hills, Cog Hill's of the US.

[Tom Dunne]

Garland, do you think influence on subsequent projects is part of the formula for measuring a course's "architectural importance"? The Castle Course is very new, so it's hard to say right now whether or not it will echo beyond the future projects of DMK. But I do think that Kingsbarns has to enter the conversation at this point, as I see it as the natural forerunner of the Castle.

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

I agree with Kingsbarns (recovery of linksland), and would complete the trinity with Bandon Dunes (build it and they will come) and MPCC-Stranz (you can transformationally put lipstick on a pig, if you are an accomplished stylist....)

 

Rich

[Peter Pallotta]

My vote could go to High Pointe. I think it may have had a quieter but more significant impact on architecture than some of the flashier choices, and one that will last longer....for a number of reasons.

Peter   

[Tom Naccarato]

Jay Flemma is now writing in Golf Architecture Volume IV?

Well, there goes the quality of that great series of books. Paul Daley, what the HELL were you thinking?

[Garland Bayley]

Tom and Rich,

I think Kingsbarns could definitely be a suitable replacement for the Castle Course in my list. I don't know enough about it to say for sure. Was it completely constructed from uninteresting land, like the Castle Course? If so, then yes it is a better choice than the Castle Course.

[Phil McDade]

My vote could go to High Pointe. I think it may have had a quieter but more significant impact on architecture than some of the flashier choices, and one that will last longer....for a number of reasons.

Peter   

Peter:

How so? In what way? I'm interested to hear your thoughts, because in many other avenues (literature, for one; pop music for another) the relatively obscure and low-key often attain greater prominence via their influence on later works.

[Peter Pallotta]

Phil - yes, we're thinking along the same lines. As in the arts-crafts you mention, the relatively low-key is that way because at first only other professionals recognize its true significance or value, and it takes a while for the population at large (and their tastes) to catch up. So I said High Pointe because of how I imagine it might've influenced others in the industry, especially coming when it did (in the last 80s, I think) -- i.e. it signalled what was possible and what was coming in golf course architecture, aesthetically and strategically and playability-wise, and how to achieve and sustain the new 'ethos' in construction and maintenance practices.  Its influence was also enhanced because other professionals saw how the indie-rock band that created it was soon signed with a major record label (to use a poor analogy). And finally, I think that what High Pointe established then has clearly had legs -- to use another poor example, and just from pictures (as I've never played either course) I think I see a lot of High Pointe in Ballyneal, despite the very different landscapes.

Peter

[Charlie Goerges]

It seems like we need to define why something might be considered “Architecturally Important”.

I think there are many ways to define this, and most are probably correct. But with the caveat that that importance must extend beyond one person or a small group of people, then it can be narrowed some.

Here are my suggestions:

External influence. This is where a work would influence people outside of those who created the work. Anything that encouraged/made someone, not associated with the creation of the original work, create something similar is (in some way) “architecturally important”.

Internal influence. This is where a work has a profound impact on its creator’s future work. Here, I like Peter’s example of High Pointe. From what I’ve read, Tom Doak’s experiences building that course had a significant impact on his subsequent viewpoint. Now, if it had been built by someone who built no additional courses, then it would not be important. But since much great work came after (and was influenced by) High Pointe, it is important.

Quality. This would refer to when a course is judged to be superior by those who are qualified to comment on a work’s place in history. Think of it in terms of the art world. Was Michelangelo’s “David” a great work before anyone but him had seen it? Yes. Was it important? I don’t know. Basically this category is reserved for those works that are considered great, but may not have been “copied” very often yet in terms of influencing work. Perhaps Mike Strantz would fall in this category, or Pine Valley (I really don’t know).

[Anthony Gray]

  Creating something from nothing has to be an important advancement. So following Sawgrass, Kingsbarns..Shadow Creek..Whistling Straits.

  Anthony

 

[Nick Schaan]

If you examine the "Architectural Tree" of Pete Dye, ie. Hanse, Doak, Coore, Nicklaus, Harbottle, Schmidt, Curley, and others, plus the family, is the real architectural significance of TPC Sawgrass over time, the things that came after from those who were mentored by Dye, and how those individuals have implimented similar thoughts and philosopies and derived their own philosiphies based on things they were tought by Pete?

Is Dye's architectural tree the largest of all, ie Tillinghast, C.B. Macdonald, MacKenzie?

[Garland Bayley]

Chambers was built after I wrote that, but is it fair to say Bandon/Pacific may have paved the way for Chambers?  I happen to think Pacific is a better course than Bandon, so that's why I gave it the nod.

BTW Jay, your article said Bandon, not Pacific.

[Anthony Gray]

  Bandon/Pacific Dunes have been done before. Look at the OLD courses of the British Ilse. I believe that following theme of architecturally importants is that Sawgrass showed a course can be built enywhere.

  I believe the importance of Bandon is more from a business model. If you build it (high quality pure golf) they will come.

  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

Anthony,

Bandon Dunes resort is architecturally significant as it brought minimalism main stream to a resort! It got away from the Fazio framing and Nicklaus love for a pretty picture. It laid out golf holes for the interest of the golf, not for the interest of the viewing. That said, I think many here would agree that this real movement was made possible by Sand Hills.

It is my impression that they have been building something out of nothing in Florida for ages. Pete's Sawgrass brought much more to the fore than just a golf course out of nothing. Therefore, IMO the follow on efforts you mention don't bring as much new to the game.

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony,

Bandon Dunes resort is architecturally significant as it brought minimalism main stream to a resort! It got away from the Fazio framing and Nicklaus love for a pretty picture. It laid out golf holes for the interest of the golf, not for the interest of the viewing. That said, I think many here would agree that this real movement was made possible by Sand Hills.

It is my impression that they have been building something out of nothing in Florida for ages. Pete's Sawgrass brought much more to the fore than just a golf course out of nothing. Therefore, IMO the follow on efforts you mention don't bring as much new to the game.

   Garland,

  Very good points. But Sand Hills was the precurser to Bandon. The point that I wanted to touch on is that Bandon/Sandhills brings minimalism to the US. It has been going on for centuries across the pond. So it is only new to the US. So Bandon/Sandhills are architecturally important because as you stated they provided a shift back to the roots of the game. I just wanted bring up the fact that minilmalism is nothing new on a world wide scale.

  Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

  As far as Tobacco Road, I do not think it is going to be that significant because it is toooo dramatic to have an influence on future courses. Of course time will tell.

  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

Anthony,

I wouldn't say minimalism is new to the US. I would say it is reborn in the US. Sand Hills and Bandon Resort rebirthed it on significant links like land.

Although, I am not highly cognizant of what was going on in the British Isles, it would seem that Palmer, Nicklaus, Norman et. al. weren't building minimalism over there either.

[Jay Flemma]

Chambers was built after I wrote that, but is it fair to say Bandon/Pacific may have paved the way for Chambers?  I happen to think Pacific is a better course than Bandon, so that's why I gave it the nod.

BTW Jay, your article said Bandon, not Pacific.

Garland, thats what happens when you take a sentence out of context.  I meant the bandon dunes resort. 

[Forrest Richardson]

Devil's Paintbrush, Toronto.

Kingsbarns, St. Andrews.

[Anthony Gray]

  Garland,

  I conceede your point that that architecturally minimalism has been one of the major influences in philosophy since Sawgrass and thankfully so. It would be interesting to have a thread on its history.

  Anthony

[Garland Bayley]

Forrest,

Why Devil's Paintbrush?

[Forrest Richardson]

Devil's Panitbrush is a terrific, and creative, course with loads of really interesting and unique — that is rare — features and ideas. I think Dana Fry and Mike Hurdzan did a splendid job there. It counts among my best surprises in golf for the past several years.

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