[Melvyn Morrow]

Peter

If you see my reply #9, there is The Times article dated the 22/09/1903 with dates but all courses not full agreed by the time the article went to print. Thanks for the info - was H I Wilson's name mentioned on you list?

Thanks

Melvyn

[Phil_the_Author]

Guys,

Ths may need a bit more looking into.

In the June 1933 issue of Golf Illustrated, Tilly wrote an article about the 1903 O-C matches titled "The First International." After mentioning J.L. Low in the first paragraph h writes the following in Par. 2:

"Aside from Low, however, the British golfers were not of the highest flight over there, but they performed quite well enough to make an exceedingly good showing, even against an All-American team, which defeated the visitors by only a narrow margin. This fact shows how great has been the advance of the quality of golf in the United States in the succeeding thirty years."

Now the results that Melvyn has reported show the O&C victorious n every match, yet clearly Tilly is stating that this wasn't the case.

Why should we believe his account? Because Tilly played in these matches himself playing against Norman Hunter in one of them. He even noted that J.A.T. Bramston played the matches using hard gutta percha balls!

Included in the article is a photograph of a group of 7 members from both teams enjoying a swim in the waters by Atlantic City. These were J.L. LOw, W.P. Smith, Samuel Y. Heebner, D. Ranson, J.T. Bramston & Tilly. One gentleman was not named.

[Neil_Crafter]

Melvyn
I have a copy of the booklet produced for the Oxford and Cambridge GS's American Tour of 1978 and it includes a number of press clippings from the 1903 tour and I have included a few below. Some other results:

At Essex CC on August 13th the OC team played four-ball matches against the All-Massachusetts golf team and won 3 matches to 2.

Seems they also played singles against the US Intercollegiate team at Myopia (I'm not sure of the date), winning 9 to 7.

cheers Neil

In the photo below, taken on their ship The Mayflower taken just before leaving Liverpool on July 31 1903, I believe C H Alison is second from the left in the back row.

[Peter Pallotta]

Phil - yes, I think the Sun article mentions the all america team winning by one point
Peter

[Bob_Huntley]

Tom Paul.

I am reminded of a member at CPC of advancing years who died unexpectedly at about eighty years of age. He had made some gifts that the IRS considered were made in anticipation of death and were disallowed and taxes were due from his estate. His lawyer then presented bills from Lobb for four pairs of shoes that could not have been delivered fror a couple of years and suits from Huntsman. The taxman relented and allowed the deduction.

Bob

[Tony_Muldoon]

The Woking Club History also states that it was at the Dinner in Chicago that the idea of a regular International Match was first proposed, this came into fruition after WW1 s the Walker Cup.

A seminal moment indeed.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Some more info on the proposed America Cup for Golf



I hope to print a report from HWB on the opening match and post it here soon.

Melvyn

[TEPaul]

BobH:

I think the moral of that story is it sounds like the IRS has some sartorial sense and taste! Somewhat unbelievable but true!

It's somewhat off the subject but speaking of old anglophiles (unfortunately she was an even bigger francophile ) I'm reminded of the indominatable Philadelphia Grand-dame Isabel Julia Henry (the one my father used to call "Uncle Julia") who during the hard years of the depression had some young trust officer ask her for money to cover some of her stocks that had basically gone underwater:

Her response was:

"Young man, that is incredibly unattractive of you! Where were you brought up? I tell YOU to give ME money, you don't tell ME to give YOU money!"

Apparently completely intimidated by that he demurred and she didn't do a thing and her stocks rode it back up in the nick of time.

[TEPaul]

BobC:

Don't know whether you've checked it out yet but GOLF Magazine covered some of the O-C tour and matches in comprehensive detail for 4-5 months in 1903 even though it seems like they didn't have a Philadelphia region correspondent on the scene to cover the drubbing of the Philadelphia team. The magazine remarked the O-C team might stop in Pittsburgh to play a team there but apparently they didn't do that and that they would play against Philadelphia around Aug 20-21 but they seemingly rescheduled that later. It also mentioned that they may play a Connecticut team and also be invited to play in a four day Westbrook GC (Long Island) tournament.

It looks like the O-C team visited Ekwanok in Vermont too.

But the interesting thing to me is the article that O-C team member J.A.T. Bramton offered critiquing American architecture. He said in their opinions Myopia was far and away the best course over here (although they liked some of Glenview and he mentioned some selective good holes on some of the other courses they played) and the most like good links architecture with excellent landform greens and a routing that used the land and natural features well rather than the common American tendency to create holes of mathematically standardized lengths that did not fit the land. Most interestingly he claimed the latter problem was probably a result of American 'thoroughness that fixated on a "scientific" (mathematical) application of architecture (particularly hole lengths) to golf shots that made for unchallenging and boring and extremely similar shots throughout. 

[TEPaul]

BobC:

The other interesting thing about one or two of those 1903 Golf Magazine issues was the extent and vigor with which Golf Magazine Editor van Tassel Stuphen (what a name!! ) went after Horace Hutchinson for claiming that American players did not understand the proper code of sportsmanship via the Rules compared to GB golfers.

He pointed out that Hutchinson had not even been here so there was no way he could know that and when Hutchinson told him he was told that but a reliable source van Tassel went after him again to reveal his source or just shut the hell up on the issue. 

Eventually the source was revealed but Van T. essentially demanded an apology anyway. Hutchinson responded that he was being mirthful but Van T. did not come close to accepting a piss poor excuse like that.

The whole thing sounded like some of the contentious threads on this DG but over a century ago! 

[BCrosby]

Melvyn -

I have seen similar articles. Obviously the O&C tour whetted everyone's appetite for more of the same, which resulted in the Walker Cup.

I also found articles from late '02 and early '03 where funding for the tour was offered by the USGA, but then blocked because people feared paying expenses would jeopardize the amateur standing of the British team. Not sure where that all ended up.

Tom -

It was an incredibly dynamic moment in golf architecture. My read of the era is that people were trying - not terribly successfuly at first - to articulate the basic organizing principles of good golf design. And the starting point for those discussions was - quite naturally - great holes.

In addition to simply identifying those holes, people were trying to tease out what made them so good. It was not self evident (then or now). Doing that analysis was not easy and it took a while (almost two decades) for a number of basic ideas to coalesce into something like a "strategic school" vs. other schools.

John Low appeared to be well ahead of his peers on those issues. He was the first to articulate clearly a number of basic strategic design ideas. His "Concerning Golf" was published the year of the O&C tour and the issues were fresh on his mind. (Note that histories of gca by Hawtree and others say Low's book was seminal for golf architecture. Rereading it, I see why they thought so.) Low was highly respected and quite influential.

Contrasting US courses with UK courses must have been a constant topic of conversation between the Yanks and the Brits. Especially so because many men from both teams went on to design golf courses. And in the middle of those conversations would have been one John Low. And as a bonus, also around the table you had CBM, Emmet, Travis, Alison, Behr, Egan, Baker and, probably, Leeds.

Fascinating. To have been a moose head on the wall......

Bob  

[TEPaul]

"It was an incredibly dynamic moment in golf architecture. My read of the era is that people were trying - not terribly successfuly at first - to articulate the basic organizing principles of good golf design. And the starting point for those discussions was - quite naturally - great holes.

In addition to simply identifying those holes, people were trying to tease out what made holes good or bad. It was not self evident (then or now). Doing that analysis was not easy and it took a while (almost two decades) for a number of basic ideas to evolve into something like a "strategic school" vs. other schools."


BobC:

You're not kidding. In this J.A.T. Brampton article in GOLF Magazine (Dec. 1903) on the state of American architectue Brampton cites an example (of either an actual hole or a concept) that is 100% totally Max Behr's "Line of Instinct/Line of Charm"!! He mentions the bunker is small and precisely where the player wants to put the ball so he must decide to come up in front of it, right of it, left of it or over it! Brampton even states the point of it is TO MAKE THE PLAYER USE HIS HEAD FIRST and make a directional and distance decision (strategic architecture).

I don't think I need to remind you that this is the very same magazine that Max Behr would take over as Editor for a year from van Tassel Sutphen. It looks like it eventually morphed in to GOLF ILLUSTRATED around 1913.

[TEPaul]

BobC:

I don't think I need to remind you either that with this additional information continuing to resurface after all these years there is no question at all that both Myopia and Herbert Leeds' stock just continues to rise higher and higher as perhaps the initial innovator over here of the first really good golf architecture in America, either seaside or inland.

It seems like nobody denies that Myopia was unquestionably the best over here at this early time and it seemed to be the only one over here that completely reminded those good players and critics coming from abroad of the best of the natural architecture on the other side that had little to none of what they referred to as "artficiality."

[BCrosby]

Tom -

Agreed about Myopia. Which makes me want to know more than ever what Leeds did at Palmetto in Aiken.

Leeds designed the first good course in both NE and the SE. The beauty part is that both still exist.

Bob

 

[TEPaul]

Bob:

The thing that totally fascinates me with that Brampton article is I have always wondered where Max Behr's basic ideas (written almost twenty years later) actually gestated from or came from---eg something like his "Line of Charm."

I always figured he sort of picked up on the writing of Arnold Haultain that got into the psychology of golf and the golfer and just took it a lot farther and deeper, but it looks to me like his "Line of Charm" thing had to have come from Brampton and that article. There is no doubt in my mind that Behr read his article in GOLF Magazine in Dec 1903 (particularly since Behr was part of those matches, right, perhaps playing as a Yale undergrad on one of the Interscholastic teams against O-C?).

[Melvyn Morrow]

A report on the opening matches at Boston 25.Aug 1903




Another one to follow re the Nassau County Club on the 7th Sept which was a win for the America by one point

Enjoy

Melvyn

[TEPaul]

Melvyn:

In one of those 1903 issues of GOLF Magazine is a wonderful article by a man of the CLOTHE (something like W.W. Tilloch) who's an old friend of OTM that's about a meeting (get-together and interview) they had in OTM's upstairs office one night. Have you seen it? Are you aware of it?

One part of it is pretty funny where OTM tells him he likes to sleep with the window always open and sometimes he wakes up with snow on his face!   

[BCrosby]

Geoff Shackelford has a wonderful John Low quote on his blog today. Might he have been reading this thread?

"Golf is a peculiar game of a peculiar people." JOHN LOW

Low was not only very bright, but apparently also had a delightful sense of humor. He understood that there is much too much irony-free golf architecture.

Thanks Melvyn. Another great find. As far as I can tell the US only won two team matches total. They played one match at each venue for a total of 12 matches. But I'm not sure about that. Whatever the exact final score, the O&C squad dominated.

Tom -

Yes, Behr played Low at Baltusrol and lost to him on the 19th green. Then Low took the young Behr aside, bought him a room temperature scotch (no ice), noted that Behr might wear better shoes and then explained to him the mystery of golf architecture.

Behr spent the rest of his life trying to unpack that brief conversation.  

Bob

[Melvyn Morrow]

The Second report dated the 29th Sept 1903 as published in the Scotsman newspaper of that day.




Melvyn

[Mike_Cirba]

This is an awesome thread.

Thanks to everyone for their contributions so far.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

Yes I am aware of Old tom’s habits and of the Rev W. W Tulloch.  Tulloch actually wrote a book about Old Tom “ The Life of Tom Morris” was going to give it to Old Tom for his birthday in 1908, but he died the month before by falling down the stairs at The New Club in St Andrews, mistaking the cellar door for the toilet door.

The first photo is of page 270 from Tulloch book talking about the snow and the second photo is the Morris then to become the Hunter Morrow house in St Andrews. Looks like Old Tom has left the fist floor bedroom window open! The second floor was added in the 20th Century but not in Old Tom’s time.



Thanks for thinking about me

Melvyn

[TEPaul]

"As far as I can tell the US only won two team matches total. They played one match at each venue for a total of 12 matches. But I'm not sure about that. Whatever the exact final score, the O&C squad dominated."


BobC:

Lest anyone today think that O-C Tour was some real proof that GB amateurs were better than US amateurs at that time, they should check out all the commentary over about 4-5 months on it in GOLF Magazine. There was quite a bit of arguing over it before the O-C team arrived about who could or should play for the American teams.

Apparently van Tassel Sutphen was imbued with some pretty heavy national pride and claimed that it wasn't right that a O-C team made up of O-C graduates should be taking on only American school and college boys for the simple reason that even if the college golfers sure did have potential and some good results they were far from as seasoned as some of the older O-C team players were in competitive golf. I think Alison was one of the few or maybe the only O-C team undergrad, right?

To van Tassel Sutphen's protestations some on the other side shot back that the O-C team was by no means a representation of the best GB amateurs anyway! 

I have no idea who played for Philadelphia against the O-C team but looking at the results (11-0) they should've all just stayed in bed and forfeited the entire match as it wouldn't have changed the outcome any! 

Although one never really knows about something like that as one time I stayed in bed (as the story goes) during a better-ball match (in the AJDP Tournament) and my partner went out there alone and cleaned the clock of the other team all by himself. That made him locally famous enough that apparently the president of PVGC heard about it and said he had to have a guy like that as a member immediately.

Actually the story is even better than him cleaning the clock alone of another team (even though I don't know all the details that well  because my whereabouts need to remain something of a classified National secret for at least another century ).

After he did that in the first match he had to go out again in the afternoon!!

About 3/4 of the way through the second match (after our caddie had ditched my clubs in the bushes finally realizing I probably wasn't going to show) the other team got dormie (five and five). At that point my partner apparently loudly proclaimed to the crowd who had flowed out of the woodwork to observe this historic event: "OK, YOU GUYS ARE REALLY IN TROUBLE NOW!" and he proceeded to go birdie, birdie, birdie and get them back to (two up with two to play) at which point they all made par on #17 and it was over.

I'm told the crowd damn near carried my partner up the par 5 18th hole on their shoulders and he entered that salubrious world of instant local fame for a time!   

The residual and lasting problem unfortunately was the team he took out in the morning were a couple of pretty significant people around here and even if everyone else seemed to be amused they most certainly were NOT!

Sometimes they still try to ask me where in the hell I was but I either plead the Fifth or just tell them I'm too old now to remember!   

[Bradley Anderson]

Another interesting thing to read about those matches was how critical the British were of the seriousness of the American players, and their general  lack of spirit for playing the game for the game's sake.

Of course that is the kind of criticism that is easiest to give out when you are  the one who is winning.  But we learned a lot about our golf courses and ourselves during those matches.

One wonders if Leeds was not encouraged to be even more penal in his tweaking of Myopia after those matches?

[TEPaul]

Bradley:

One needs to realize that Leeds worked on Myopia constantly for over twenty years and he definitely was something of a Madman in the context of bunkers and difficulty. If he heard about someone getting away with something he felt they shouldn't they say he carried chips or little stakes in his pocket and he'd just go out there and flip one at the spot he wanted another bunker.

In that way Leeds and W.C. Fownes were very similar and that's why under Fownes' reign at Oakmont that lasted until almost 1950 the course at that time ended up with over 300 bunkers on it.

Today Myopia does not have as many bunkers as it did when Leeds controlled the place. Actually I found out a few years ago that it was a really good friend and golf partner of my father's, Bobby Knowles (pretty famous golfer), who took out a lot of Myopia's bunkers some decades later.

But today most of them have been restored.

As far as the josting and jabbing and gibing in print between which side had the better courses and players that particular time got pretty intense between writers and critics and analysts on both sides, and this guy van Tassel Sutphen, the Editor of GOLF magazine in the first decade of the 20th century was about the most vocal of all of them, even though in the teens Tillinghast didn't exactly hold back that way.

[Bill_McBride]

"As far as I can tell the US only won two team matches total. They played one match at each venue for a total of 12 matches. But I'm not sure about that. Whatever the exact final score, the O&C squad dominated."


BobC:

Lest anyone today think that O-C Tour was some real proof that GB amateurs were better than US amateurs at that time, they should check out all the commentary over about 4-5 months on it in GOLF Magazine. There was quite a bit of arguing over it before the O-C team arrived about who could or should play for the American teams.

Apparently van Tassel Sutphen was imbued with some pretty heavy national pride and claimed that it wasn't right that a O-C team made up of O-C graduates should be taking on only American school and college boys for the simple reason that even if the college golfers sure did have potential and some good results they were far from as seasoned as some of the older O-C team players were in competitive golf. I think Alison was one of the few or maybe the only O-C team undergrad, right?

To van Tassel Sutphen's protestations some on the other side shot back that the O-C team was by no means a representation of the best GB amateurs anyway! 

I have no idea who played for Philadelphia against the O-C team but looking at the results (11-0) they should've all just stayed in bed and forfeited the entire match as it wouldn't have changed the outcome any! 

Although one never really knows about something like that as one time I stayed in bed (as the story goes) during a better-ball match (in the AJDP Tournament) and my partner went out there alone and cleaned the clock of the other team all by himself. That made him locally famous enough that apparently the president of PVGC heard about it and said he had to have a guy like that as a member immediately.

Actually the story is even better than him cleaning the clock alone of another team (even though I don't know all the details that well  because my whereabouts need to remain something of a classified National secret for at least another century ).

After he did that in the first match he had to go out again in the afternoon!!

About 3/4 of the way through the second match (after our caddie had ditched my clubs in the bushes finally realizing I probably wasn't going to show) the other team got dormie (five and five). At that point my partner apparently loudly proclaimed to the crowd who had flowed out of the woodwork to observe this historic event: "OK, YOU GUYS ARE REALLY IN TROUBLE NOW!" and he proceeded to go birdie, birdie, birdie and get them back to (two up with two to play) at which point they all made par on #17 and it was over.

I'm told the crowd damn near carried my partner up the par 5 18th hole on their shoulders and he entered that salubrious world of instant local fame for a time!   

The residual and lasting problem unfortunately was the team he took out in the morning were a couple of pretty significant people around here and even if everyone else seemed to be amused they most certainly were NOT!

Sometimes they still try to ask me where in the hell I was but I either plead the Fifth or just tell them I'm too old now to remember!   

Tom, one of my few achievements in a 50 year golf career was winning a four ball college match on my own as we only had 5 players that day and there were six members of each side.

I can tell you the other guys were pissed off royally as we walked up the hill to the 18th green at Virginia CC (Long Beach CA), with me safely on in 3 on that par 5 and them 1 down and nobody sniffing a birdie.  It was a great feeling.

Now you know how your partner felt that day while you were doing whatever the hell you were doing instead of playing golf. 

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