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Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2008, 07:42:10 AM »

#2 is a sharp dog-leg left with a inside carry bunker, cartpath and woods.  Trying to carry it causes problems.  There is plenty of room wide right but leaves 200 yards in, and the green is pretty small for that distance and normal clientele. 



It's actually a pair of pot bunkers at the left corner.  Not many folks can carry the bunkers and only the better players would even try.  The play off the tee is to hit straight leaving you (as you say) a couple of hundred yards in.  The green surrounds are quite generous left and right but protected in front by another pair of stern pot bunkers.

Our group waited for 30 seconds for the group in front of us to putt out on 1.  We never saw them on 2 at all.  Don't understand why #2 two is such a back-up.

JC

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2008, 07:44:49 AM »
Quote
Andy, I agree with your comments.  Would Charlotte Golf Links have ever been mentioned on this site if it didn't have Tom Doak's name attached to it? 

Ed

Ed - I agree.  I went there because I knew it was an early Doak and I wanted to see it.  Likely would have played elsewhere otherwise.

JC

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2008, 08:38:23 AM »
While I'm flattered that someone thinks my name is so valuable, I would like to point out that the vast majority of the people who play Charlotte Golf Links don't know my name at all, and don't care ... but it does have a customer base who like the course.

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2008, 10:16:30 AM »
Tom, while your name may not be "valuable" to the general public, it trades at a premium on this board.  I suspect that more often than not your name is the ONLY reason why members of gca.com would venture to play the course. 

I will admit that my prior visits to CGL did not inspire me to return.  But I will make it a point to take another look in the hopes of finding what I missed.

Ed

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2008, 11:07:23 AM »
I played it once, probably around 1998, and honestly, wasn't half the aficionado that I am today, of golf course architecture.  I have the Walter Travis society, Warren Gelman, Mike Keiser, Bob Labbance, Scott Witter and a host of other good people to thank for guiding me in my journey toward the light.

Concerning the comment on awareness without Tom Doak's name attached, of course it wouldn't get the attention if it didn't merit it.  Uncle Tom is an important figure in golf architecture and every contribution he makes will receive scrutiny.  If we make it out to be MORE than it is due to his name, THAT'S where we run into trouble.  I, for one, would love to get back and play it with clear eyes.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2008, 11:18:08 AM »
I liked CGL better then nearby Charlotte GC (restored Ross).

...at least in terms of local perception, the design hasn't been able to overcome those external shortcomings.

Ed - What are the external shortcomings to which you refer... the location, neighborhood, bad reputation? I've never visited CGL so I don't have any idea this means. Thanks!



Michael, I was thinking mostly of a reputation for poor playing conditions and long rounds which detract from the quality of the experience.  My impression is that these factors carry far more weight than architectural merit when folks are considering the local public golf options. 

I understand. Thanks. What would be considered the #1 and #2 public options in the Charlotte area?
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

JC Urbina

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2008, 12:29:58 PM »
During my tour of the course this past November.  I noticed a couple playing what looked liked the first round ever on a golf course.  A couple of ladies pushing 60 not dressed like golfers, driving the cart around playing golf and enjoying the day.  I watched a few groups of hot rod kids (early twenties) having a good match hitting some really great shots. A father and son( 6 or 7) playing golf, his son hitting extra balls and practicing his putting but moving along rather quickly.  A family of four talking and having fun.
Public Golf at it's finest
  The guy who intrigued me the most was a guy walking and carrying his own bag.  He stopped me and asked what I was doing looking at the course but not playing.  He asked if I was going to buy the course.  I replied I was just looking around, he said he belonged to a championship course just down the street but really enjoyed playing at CGL when possible.  I asked why he didn't play more often? His reply was that on the weekends it was very busy but liked coming out during the week.  My visit was on a Tuesday and it was packed. The guy was wearing a Pinehurst shirt so I asked what he thought of the greens?  He said that they reminded him of Donald Ross greens and that he really liked the short par 3 11th hole.
The reason for the long story is that most people that day could care less who it was designed by.  They are each playing golf for different reasons.  Some to enjoy the day, others to enjoy the game with a friend or young son and others for a challenge and the competition. 
The guy carrying his own bag was a lot like most of you on this site.  Interested in the design and compared it to other places he had been.  Didn't know why he liked the 11th hole but loved the way it played not knowing it was a flip flopped postage stamp hole.  He may have been the only guy that day that cared who had designed the course.

# 2 is not a 90 degree dog leg.  The two pot bunkers in front of the second green are deeper then the day I built them.  Mostly because of bunker splash.

Some of my favorite holes #2,4,14,15


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2008, 01:00:53 PM »
Here is a pic of #2 at CGL.  Jim is correct in pointing out that its nowhere near a 90 degree dogleg.

14 and 17 look closer to being such but appear to have room on the inside corner of the dogleg.


Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2008, 06:17:31 PM »
#2 at CGL seems a bit like #10 at Heathland... but, with less intimidating fairway bunkers. It that a fair comparison?
 
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2008, 10:53:15 PM »
Ed (and others):  I'm not especially encouraging you to return, and I'm not trying to make the course out to be more than it is.  (Jonathan started that part of the conversation.) 

I was just pointing out that, just because it might not be of particular interest to GCA.com, nor a candidate for a list of the great courses of the world, does not mean it is an "unworthy" course.  It's a good golf course, and it seems to have been reasonably successful in attracting a customer base, which is all the client really wanted from it.

It bothers me that many people on this site are only interested in list-making, and some seem to believe that EVERY course should strive to make those lists or the architect and developer are both at fault.

In the real world, it's more the opposite.  While we all try our best to make every project cool, there are only a few which have the property that building one of the best courses in the world is a legitimate possibility.  I've been lucky to work on a few such properties, but that doesn't mean everything else we've done is a waste of time and effort. 

Of course, there is always the occasional Miracle from God, where everything comes together on a more ordinary piece of property to produce Oakmont or Pinehurst No. 2.  But those are 1-in-1,000 shots, and the odds of doing the same thing at Charlotte Golf Links -- without a client who had that goal -- would have been considerably higher.  The guys who think we should have moved heaven and earth to try, are just off in their own reality.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #35 on: January 01, 2009, 08:47:41 AM »
Well written, case closed, time for a new thread.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Andy Troeger

Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #36 on: January 01, 2009, 09:28:47 AM »
Ed (and others):  I'm not especially encouraging you to return, and I'm not trying to make the course out to be more than it is.  (Jonathan started that part of the conversation.) 

I was just pointing out that, just because it might not be of particular interest to GCA.com, nor a candidate for a list of the great courses of the world, does not mean it is an "unworthy" course.  It's a good golf course, and it seems to have been reasonably successful in attracting a customer base, which is all the client really wanted from it.

It bothers me that many people on this site are only interested in list-making, and some seem to believe that EVERY course should strive to make those lists or the architect and developer are both at fault.

In the real world, it's more the opposite.  While we all try our best to make every project cool, there are only a few which have the property that building one of the best courses in the world is a legitimate possibility.  I've been lucky to work on a few such properties, but that doesn't mean everything else we've done is a waste of time and effort. 

Of course, there is always the occasional Miracle from God, where everything comes together on a more ordinary piece of property to produce Oakmont or Pinehurst No. 2.  But those are 1-in-1,000 shots, and the odds of doing the same thing at Charlotte Golf Links -- without a client who had that goal -- would have been considerably higher.  The guys who think we should have moved heaven and earth to try, are just off in their own reality.

Tom,
I think this post is well stated as was Mr. Urbina's a few posts previously--my posts were reactions to Jonathan's comments about the course being a gem and better than some of your other designs. I intended for my last post to indicate that the course fills its role just fine given the goals of the project and the land available. Better yet that its been successful at attracting a customer base. Heck, if I lived in Charlotte I'd probably play it a few times a year myself--its a perfectly fine place to enjoy a round of golf without getting my brains beat in as at some other layouts.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2009, 10:28:26 AM »
Jim Urbina,

I remember the 2002 Canadian Senior Open at my home club, Essex. The media that week was making a big deal about the course being designed by Donald Ross. Then, someone asked Bruce Lietkze what he thought of this "Donald Ross gem", or something like that. I'll never forget his answer. Lietzke said something like: "I don't care if it was designed by Donald Ross or Donald Duck. Essex is just a good golf course."

Again, this answer's stuck with me. Lietzke makes a really good point.
jeffmingay.com

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2009, 11:17:09 AM »
Ed (and others):  I'm not especially encouraging you to return, and I'm not trying to make the course out to be more than it is.  (Jonathan started that part of the conversation.) 


Making the course out more than it is??  Now that's a rather telling summary coming from the designer!

I stand by my assessment and opinion.  I was pleasantly surprised.  I do think CGL is better than some of the RGD courses I've seen (Tom doesn't get a free pass from me.  I've disliked other RGD courses much more highly touted than CGL).  I'm guessing many here on this site would find CGL (as I did) to be a local little gem.  I found CGL more fun to play than CCC.  Again, that's my assessment and opinion.

JC

Matt MacIver

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2009, 01:18:21 PM »
What would be considered the #1 and #2 public options in the Charlotte area?

I really like the ~2 year old Carolina Lakes, built within the new Del Webb retirement community.  Rolling fairways, contoured greens, varying lengths and angles, limited lost-ball opportunities. 

Others in south CLT: Springfield is a good public and Regent Park remains fine.  Ballantyne Resort gets lots of play but is not a favorite of mine.  North of the city I like Birkdale and Skybrook. 

CGL easily falls within my top 5 CLT publics. 

As for #2 CGL, while the picture indeed does not portray a 90-degree dogleg the hole plays like one: 3-wood/driver off the tee, straight, then a 200 yard iron, straight again. 

This thread illustrates the obvious...Tom and Jim need to swing through Charlotte so we can all play a round and talk more about this stuff! 2009 could just be the time to do it...

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #40 on: January 01, 2009, 02:05:27 PM »
Tom Doak, agreed on all accounts.  For what its worth, like Andy, I was just responding to the characterization of the course as a "gem".  In my visits, I haven't seen that quality.  But its been awhile since I was there so I am interested in taking a fresh look.  Regardless, I don't believe CGL has to be a gem to be "worthy".  Places that aren't great are often the greatest places to play. 

Happy New Year!

Ed 

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2009, 09:14:28 PM »
Bump a rooski...

I played Charlotte Golf Links today for the second time in 12 years (the first was twelve years ago.)  The wind was howling, the rains were threatening and the sky was gloomy like Scotland.  In other words, how the course should play.  The course did play fast and was a lot of fun to rediscover.  What I found can be summarized as below:

...I have an appreciation for the bunkering.  The architect and shapers did a fine job with the fairway and the greenside sand pits.  They add aesthetically and strategically to the play.

...I have a great appreciation for the greens.  The contours were most imaginative and the speed of the greens (probably about a 9 or 10) allowed one (one being me) to bang away and embrace the rolls as they are meant to be traversed, without need to putt defensively.  The seven missed five-feeters were my own doing.

...There were a fair number of holes with fairway contours that, when played correctly, brought drives from oblivion to the perfect approach position.  In summary, you can develop a terrific traditional game at CGL without ever growing bored.  I suspect that The Doak grows tired of defending certain designs, but this one is worth seeing.  Below and in the next post are some nice shots of bunkers and greens.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2009, 09:24:05 PM »
Here are some more shots of sand tears, green contours and the like.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Roger Wolfe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2009, 02:15:29 PM »
I liked CGL better then nearby Charlotte [Country Club] (restored Ross).
JC

Might be the first time I've ever heard that!




Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2009, 04:39:49 PM »
For those that have seen both CGL and Heathlands, which did you prefer and why?

One thing I really liked about Heathlands were the smaller bunkers.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 04:42:26 PM by Tony Ristola »

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2009, 06:41:23 PM »
I liked CGL better then nearby Charlotte [Country Club] (restored Ross).
JC

Might be the first time I've ever heard that!

Especially from a long time member of the DRS and member of a DR club!!

JC





Cristian

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2009, 07:54:28 PM »
Jonathan
  I recently returned to Charlotte to take a quick tour of the course this past November.  I had forgot how varied the greens were.
Mark
  The back tee for the postage stamp measures in at at 135.  The green complex is flipped over making the high ridge play on the right side instead of the left.

Working on Old Macdonald this past year and then peeking at the size of the greens in Charlotte was a real eye opener for me.

Just out of pure curiousity; what made you go back to CGL at this time? Just coincidence?

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2009, 08:12:47 PM »
Is that question for Jonathan/JC or for me?

Ron M.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Cristian

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #48 on: April 07, 2009, 08:24:40 PM »
Sorry,

It's for JC, as I find it interesting he is revisiting a course built so long ago...

Perhaps it has to do with a prospective or recent project?

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charlotte Golf Links
« Reply #49 on: April 07, 2009, 08:43:11 PM »
Oh...are you sure?  I'm the one who revisited it after a 12-year absence, just yesterday.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!