Kenny Venturi

[Ken_Cotner]

Oops, I forgot my conclusion:

"So for me, I'll take water over that over-glorified BFAD (Beverage For A Day) Gatorade.  Preferably straight from the tap, not artificially cold, left untreated and containing natural minerals giving it a gnarly, naturally brownish color.  Of course, it must be drunk from an old dirty glass to ensure the proper Maintenance Meld."

KC

[Patrick_Mucci]

BIll V

Didn't Stokely VAn Kamp buy the original rights to Gatorade ?

[John Foley]

I may be the anomoly on this DG, A Golf Arch fan who has actually run a marathon (anyone else?)

Anyone seriously excersizing ( especially in the heat & humodity) NEEDS something other that H2O if you don't want to crash & burn somewhere on that back nine. Gatorade (or any other sports drink w/ salts, electrolytes & sugar) is a must.

Bill - a an isotonic citrus/malt beverage. Only to be developed in a college town!

[Doug Wright]

johnf,

Are you kidding? This DG is chock full of Type As who like nothing more than to abuse themselves on the hardest tracks around, be they marathons or golf courses.  

All The Best,

PS I once took some salt tablets while doing slave labour at a tile manufacturing plant where the temp was 110 or so near the kilns, and nearly died. What were they thinking?

All The Best,

[Ken_Cotner]

John F,

I'll bite -- one marathon (NYC) after I had retired from competition, but still sub-2:50.  First time a woman ever beat me in a race (actually about 27 of them did).  I'm sure others on here have run them.

Gatorade cut to half-strength seemed to work best for me.

Golf architecture content -- there is a course in Charlotte which is rated "0" in Confidential Guide which would be a terrific site for a national cross-country meet.  In fact, they should just close the course and turn it into a park.

K

[Dave_Miller]

To Redanman:

Haven't been to the Cal Club since 1999 but the picture as I remember was still there.
Best
Dave

[SL_Solow]

As one of many who have been watching this thread, the response is not good enough.  Its clear that there is nothing credible to back the allegation so from my perspective its time to move along.  Despite Pat's best efforts we are not going to get a retraction or justification for the slander.  What is truly unfortunate is that it distracted from the discussion of Venturi's rank as a golfer and broadcaster.  I note with some chagrin that he did little to raise the level of discourse relating to architecture, the focus of this site.

[B. Theodore]

Patrick_Mucci,
Ken Venturi was interviewed by Art Stricklin for PGA Partners Club Online. The link to the article is at the bottom of the post.

In the interview Venturi says very clearly that he picked Snead as his partner for the final round in 1956.

In the posts I quoted you said that your source who was close to the situation said that Venturi's version of what happened is untrue. If it is untrue then Venturi is lying, whatever the motive.

From the interview
>>>>>>>
PARTNERS: What was the controversy about who you were paired with in that final round?

VENTURI: At that time, Byron Nelson traditionally played with the leader on the last day. But Clifford Roberts came to me and said, "We don't want you to play with Byron because he's your mentor. We know you're going to win. However, we don't want it to be a hollow victory because people might say Byron Nelson helped you." I said, "Mr. Roberts, you're absolutely right." He said, "You may pick anyone you want." Feeling I was going to win, and since I had been taught by Byron and had played with Hogan in '54, I thought I'd like to walk up the 18th fairway with Sam Snead. And so I picked Snead. After I lost, a sports writer, who shall remain nameless, screwed up the whole story. The writers asked if they had changed the pairings on me. I said, "Yes, they did. They didn't want an amateur to win and have it be a hollow victory, and I agreed that was right." They asked, "Did Sam Snead talk to you during the round?" I said, "He tried to, but he knew how nervous I was, so he decided it was best to leave me alone." After the round, my mother was crying because I had lost, and I said to her, "Don't worry, mom, we'll show 'em. We'll win the Open." So this writer's story says the Masters had changed the pairings because they didn't want an amateur to win, that Sam Snead had given me the silent treatment and that Venturi vows revenge and says he will win the Open. When I went to Augusta the next year, the people booed me. I lived with that for a long time, until Bobby Jones and Cliff Roberts brought me in, and Roberts said, "Ken, I want to apologize. I know now that you did not say those things." I didn't really care who else knew, as long as Bobby Jones did. Jones was the first to my aid. He told Roberts, "Cliff, remember what I told you. I told you that young man did not say that. I have watched this young man."
<<<<<<<<
http://visitors.partnersclubonline.com/mag_articles/venturi.asp

[CB]

This has been a wonderful catty thread, with arguments as to what constitues a great player, whether or not KV cheated, and whether or not KV chose his playing partner at the Masters.  I'm interested to see how Patrick responds to B. Theodore, who appears to have him in a corner.

By the way, "greatness" is really being thrown around tonight, with Dan Hicks of NBC referring to Hale Irwin, Tom Kite, and Ray Floyd as "some of the all-time greats"; I guess Phil's only one major win away from being an all-time great!!

(Shinnecock's #14 is a phenomenal natural hole) to qualify as a post on architecture to prvent deletion  

Boy you said it!

[Patrick_Mucci]

B. Theodore,

So Cliff Roberts said, "We know you're going to win"
Despite the fact that Venturi just shot a 75 in the third round, and only had a four shot lead against the best pros in the world, going in to the last, pressure packed round.

If that was the case, Why didn't they just give him the trophy at that point.  I have strong doubts that a man in that position would utter those words to an amateur contestant on the eve of the last round of The Masters.

I have stronger doubts, that Cliff Roberts, concerned with Venturi's victory being tainted by favoritism, would place Venturi in a position that would only heighten and worsen that concern.

Interesting how your quote provides a story about other reporters who got the story wrong, perhaps this reporter got it wrong as well.

My conversation with Byron Nelson was specifically about this incident.  Nelson said he tried to persuade/argue with Roberts that he shouldn't change the pairing, and at no tiime did Nelson ever indicate that Venturi was given any choice in the matter.

I can't account for another party's interpretation or version of the story, nor am I trying to sell newspapers or magazines,
I can account, unequivically, for what Nelson told me, eyeball to eyeball.

C.B.,

Hale Irwin wins Three (3) US OPENS, and you don't think he's great ?

[CB]

Patrick,

I think Hale Irwin is a great player; same for Tom Kite and Ray Floyd.  I just thought that referring to them as "some of the all-time greats" goes a little far!  Actually, when Dan Hicks said that "some of the all-time greats" were close to the lead, I thought "All right!  What did Watson and Nicklaus shoot today?", but they were referring to the other three.

Actually, if limited strictly to Senior Tour golf, then I guess Irwin and Floyd ARE some of the all-time greats (we'll have to see about Kite)!

[TEPaul]

Hale Irwin not a great golfer?? Three US Opens?? Jeessus, what do you fellows want?

Hale Irwin maybe wasn't exactly Jack, but if you want what might have been the most "steely, get it done" US Open style competitor ever (a hard course competitor), I would sure as hell put Hale Irwin in a group of about half a handful like that!!

The definition of US Open course management? Hale Irwin must have had a hand in writing the definition!!

[A_Clay_Man]

I have no interest in reading this post in it's entirety.

I just want to know if anybody has related the lore about how and when KV shot the course record at Old Del Monte?