Kenny Venturi

[Dan King]

SGD writes:
Mr. Kelly:

As long as we're clarifying definitions (e.g., what constitutes "great"), please be informed that there's a difference between attending "college" and a "junior college".  

Very good zing. I'd applaud it a little louder, but you addressed it to the wrong DK.

Joe Carr, the great Irish amateur was having a very bad day of golf at Sligo.
Caddies asked Joe: "Have you ever played Rosses Point before, Sor?"
Joe Carr: "Oh Yes, Many times."
Caddie: "You know they play the West of Ireland championship here, Sor."
Joe Carr: "I know, I won it twelve times."
Caddie: "It must have been fierce easy to win in those days Sor."

[Dan Kelly]

SGD --

You talkin' to me?

I think you must be talking to Dan King. (Kinda snidely-like, too, seems like.)

Either that, or I'm really confused.

Could be!

For a long time, I thought there were universities, colleges, junior colleges .... and one junior university.

Junior university?

Yes, sir -- and a pretty well-regarded one, too.

It's out there in Palo Alto: Leland Stanford Junior University.

Decent golf course, too!

[TEPaul]

Instead of advising each other to consult dictionaries why don't you'all do something simple and agree if a pro golfer makes it into the hall of fame he's probably great?

[Dan Kelly]

TEPaul --

Somethin' might' strange goin' on here -- me sayin' SGD's soundin' "kinda snidely-like, too, seems like" and you givin' advice to "you'all."

I don't think we'll find "snidely-like" OR "you-all" in the good ol' OED!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan King,

Your position is that Byron Nelson is incapable of being objective in discussing Venturi ??  What personal knowledge of Nelson do you have that would lead you to that conclusion.

It's true, he was Venturi's mentor/teacher and his friend, but,
that doesn't prevent him from making a critical remark or objective analysis, especially when he made his statements, late in his years, in a private conversation not meant for the public or the media.

I'm fairly confident that the comments Nelson made relative to Venturi and the Masters were honest and objective.

Boros and Bolt had full careers, neither one was nagged by a degenerative/progressive disease.  Your comparison is flawed.

How can you say that the tour was at a low point competitively, weren't Palmer, Player, Nicklaus, Casper and a host of other talented players competing with him.
Isn't that the same knock some try to place on Tiger, that there is no one who has won a lot of Majors competing with him.  Yet, that doesn't seem to be the case with Venturi.

You defined great, quantitatively, as being the top dozen or two pros, not me.  The definition in the dictionary would seem to be much broader than the one you chose, so perhaps you should consult the dictionary prior to creating your own definitions.

I'm curious about something, How do you know what Greg Norman's potential was ?

Perhaps, all things being known, he exceeded his potential, maybe he met it, and maybe he didn't, but how do you know?

And, you state he was clueless on how to play with the lead.
How did he win the British Open, he had the lead, and kept it.
But, I'm sure you could teach Greg a lesson or two on how to play with the lead.  You could say he blew the Masters one year, or two, but you can't say that defined his career, and that he wasn't a GREAT player.

Perhaps he, like Nelson wanted to focus on other aspects of his life, with golf just being another facet.

Dan Kelly,

You call 13 tour wins and a U.S. Open so-so, in a career relatively short, as defined by the date he turned pro and the date of the onset of the Reynauds ??

Did Koufax pitch 5 days a week ?
Did Koufax pitch when injured ?
Did Team mates carry some of the load ?
Your analogy is infirmed, there's no comparison.

If we heed Dan King's advice, and consult a dictionary,
some definitions are:

Remarkably skilled
Markedly superior in character or quality

I think Venturi fits that definition as a player pre injury.

[TEPaul]

Dan King:

Pat's right, you're opinion and your logic is completely flawed about Byron's objectivity towards Venturi's greatness even if Byron was Ken's mentor!

I mean I'm Pat Mucci's mentor and I can say with total objectivity the man can play! But when I took him on as a helpless student he was a total mess.

His putting would make you sick to your stomach. He was like one of those dosers or dozers or whatever you call one of those people who grab a stick that has a mind of its own and let it lead them to water or a site for a well.

He'd grab his putter tight with both hands and the putter would take him over and control him totally! Sometimes you actually had to get out of the way of that putter and Pat or you could get hurt!

But he's OK with it now--I fixed him totally and I can say with complete objectivity that for a man who's entering that stage where he starts to think about his own mortality Pat Mucci can really play--I'd even call him great!

[Dan Kelly]

Patrick --

You with yer goll-durned questions, one after t'other!

Here we go agin!

Or not!

'Cause I ain't-a goin', boy! (You're absolooootly right, Tom I! I'm feelin' dyyyyyyynamic!)

You show me, Mr. Pat, where I said Venturi was "so-so," and we can continue this conversation.

In the meantime, I'll settle for saying what I've said before: Venturi does not belong in the Pantheon of the Greatest of the Great, with Jones, Nicklaus, Hogan, Woods, Nelson, Hagen, Vardon and possibly others.

You are perfectly welcome to think otherwise.

Of course, if you do, you could be wrong. N.B.: could be.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Tom, Pat, et al...

You have done nothing to convince me that Ken Venturi is one of the greats of all time. He had some great moments and overcame some great obstacles but that doesn't make him one of the greats.

Golf Digest did a spread on the 50 greatest golfers of all time and Ken was not one of them.

I'm sure he's a great guy though.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan King,

It's true, Tom Paul reconstructed my entire game, and to express my gratitude, in return, I promised to teach him all about golf course architecture.

When I first met Tom Paul, he thought Coore & Crenshaw was a western combo dish made with beer and melon.

Firm and fast was a term he coined at the gym where he worked out, describing some rather loose, but tight females.

He thought maintainance meld was some type of grilled cheese sandwich, or strong gin rummy hand with an ace as the only non matching card.

This boy had a lot to learn.

But, I accepted the task.

It took me months to convince him that Flynn was not
James Coburn or Dean Martin.

He still thinks the Donald Ross Society has something to do with preserving the original American Flag.

He refuses to acknowledge that A.W.Tillinghast is not an actuarial consulting firm.

This was no easy job.
He had these strange preconceived notions.

He insisted that the only Alps were in Switzerland.
That Eden is a garden
That the Cape is either at the tip of Africa or South America,
later he included Masachussetts.
That the valley of sin is just outside Las Vegas
That the only white faces were on Al Jolson
That Redans is a typo, it should be Red ant.
That Turbo Boost is an afterburner in a jet engine
That Plateau is a podiatrist's diagnosis.
That Road hole is a grimmey bar and grille.
That Merion is a Robin Hood character
That Biarritz is an exclusive hotel in Biar
That Seth Raynor Made clocks
That Charlie Banks played for the Chicago Cubs
That CB MacDonald founded MacDonalds
That Bobby Jones made shirts

But, after hours upon endless hours of tutoring the boy I'm happy to report that he has made great progress.  
One of the only drawbacks to the process was that in order to sustain himself over the hours of study, he consumed vast quantities of candy, manufactured by the Peter Paul (a distant relative) company, and developed an allergic, and often histerical reaction to chocolate and MOUNDS.
The mere mention of the word can set him off for days.

But, all in all, I'm proud of my pupil, we've come to appreciate each other, our ideas and skills.  I go to him for golf lessons and playing advice, and he consults with me on all matters pertaining to golf course architecture, sometimes feigning opposing views so that others might not see through our charade.  

My only regret is that he still insists that STYMIE was a character from the old "OUR GANG" comedy series.

Dan and Craig,

Tom Paul and I never said he was one of the greats of all time
Where did you get that notion from ?
When Dan King said he was a mediocre Pro we took exception to it, and expressed our opinion, never claiming that he was one of the greats of all time, simply that he was a great, not a mediocre player.  We stand, unmoved, behind our position.

[David Kelly]

Pat Mucci,
I used to think that Roberts paired Venturi with Snead for that 1956 final round too until I read the following article before this year's Masters.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/augusta/history/news/2002/04/07/disaster_venturi/

Here is a quote from the article:
"In those days, the final-round leader was usually paired with former champion Byron Nelson. Considering Nelson was Venturi's dear friend and mentor, Masters Committee chairman Clifford Roberts approached Venturi about switching the pairings to spare the first amateur champion from having his victory considered "hollow" by the perception that he was guided home by his tutor.

Venturi agreed, and given the opportunity to choose anyone in the field to play with, he picked Sam Snead. Recognizing Venturi's nervousness, Snead generally left the young amateur alone during the round.

'Sam Snead could not have been better to play with,' Venturi said. "Absolute gentleman.'"

[Dan King]

Patrick Mucci writes:
Your position is that Byron Nelson is incapable of being objective in discussing Venturi ??

I never said he was incapable, just that I’d be inclined to chock some of it up to his friendship with Venturi.

What personal knowledge of Nelson do you have that would lead you to that conclusion.

It’s this unique ability I have. It might sound cool, but it’s really been a curse my whole life.

Boros and Bolt had full careers, neither one was nagged by a degenerative/progressive disease.  Your comparison is flawed.

All comparisons by there very nature are flawed. You can always find parameters that don’t match. The question is, do the differences make the comparisons invalid?

My original statement was that Venturi was a mediocre pro. You then brought up numerous things he did as an amateur to some how prove me wrong. I pointed out how nonsensical that was.

Of course Boros and Bolt didn’t have identical careers to Venturi. But length is a red herring. The idea was that his professional career was mediocre. I didn’t make any claims about why, just that it was.

Nobody dominated like Young Tom Morris. But his career was cut short. Unfortunate, but true. It’s possible, had his career lasted longer we’d be talking about Tiger Woods chasing the ghost of Young Tom. But we don’t. We’ll never know what might have been, just like we’ll never know what Nelson might have done had he not retired early. Young Tom and Nelson had a brilliant short career. Venturi had a mediocre short career.

You defined great, quantitatively, as being the top dozen or two pros, not me.  

It’s always fun having these discussions with you. I then find out all the things I said.

I thought I had said only a dozen or two meet the definition of greatness, not the other way around, but I’m sure you can quote what you claim I said.

But, I'm sure you could teach Greg a lesson or two on how to play with the lead.

He never asked for my help, so I guess we will never know.

You could say he blew the Masters one year, or two, but you can't say that defined his career, and that he wasn't a GREAT player.

Sure I can, matter of fact, I think I have.

Perhaps he, like Nelson wanted to focus on other aspects of his life, with golf just being another facet.

And how does that make him a great professional golfer? Could make Norman a great business man, or father, or some other aspect of his life, but focusing on something else would have hurt his career, just like it did for Nelson.

There have been writers that have displayed flashes of brilliance. But few have shown the greatness of a Jim Murray over a long career.  Maybe they burned out, maybe they went on to other things, maybe they developed drinking habits that ruined their writing. Perhaps they changed careers because writing is a brutal life. Is it fair to give them the same mantel of greatness as the Great One himself?

"I never saw any of man's baser acts of inhumanity to man. I never saw screaming 'witches' burned at the stake, Christians tossed to starving lions, maidens pushed over the edge of active volcanoes. I never even saw a man going to the electric chair. But until I do, watching Ben Hogan walk up to a five-foot putt is my idea of cruel and inhuman punishment, only a Hitler would enjoy. You feel like saying 'Go home to your wife and kiddies and don't look upon this terrible thing!'"
 --Jim Murray (on Ben Hogan with the yips)

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Kelly,

The Masters is played under USGA rules, hence Nelson could not have provided advice or assistance to Venturi.

Sam Snead was a fierce competitor, but I'm not sure he or any other pros would have been encouraging to a young amateur about to beat them at their profession, at such a prestigious event.

The story in Sports Illustrated is interesting, especially the committee part, but my information comes from one of the interested parties, and differs from the Sports Illustrated account.

Dan King,

I don't consider 13 tour wins, and a US OPEN the accomplishment of a mediocre player, especially when he was laboring with a degenerative disease.

Perhaps our standards are different.

[TEPaul]

Good Lord, Pat Mucci, you are one very excellent comedian--that's one of the funniest posts I've seen--I wish to heck my printer worked so I could print it out but every time I try to use it the thing jams and I really don't feel like throwing it out the window at the moment.

But you're right about how much I've picked up in a very short time! My learning curve has been sort of scary, don't you think?

"Coore and Crenshaw is a western combo dish made with beer and melon".

That's beautiful, I love that--I'm gonna tell them that--they'll love it too!

[TEPaul]

Craig Edmund:

Can't convince you Venturi is one of the greats of all time, huh?

How old are you anyway? Apparently not old enough to remember those five US Opens Ken won before you were born I guess. Venturi also beat Lou Fortunata, something nobody else ever did!

[Dan Kelly]

Patrick, you're just infuriating!

I didn't say you said Venturi was one of the greats of all time!

I said you were welcome to think that if you liked!

Let's recap:

I said, originally: "Perhaps someone can explain to me why it matters whether Ken Venturi, as a player, is considered 'great,' 'near great,' or simply 'very good.' Isn't it just one big semantic wrestling match, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing? (Shakespeare) Clearly: Venturi was not in the league with Jones, Hogan, Snead, Nicklaus, Woods. Clearly: Venturi was not in the league with Vardon, Sarazen, Hagen, Nelson, Palmer, Trevino, Watson. Just as clearly: Venturi was not in the league with Orville Moody. By any definition of greatness that doesn't limit itself to the super-super-greats and the super-greats (and I understand why we debate who belongs in those two categories), Venturi was a great player.""

You replied: "Do you think you provided a fair comparison? The players you list had full careers, not hampered, limited or terminated by an incurable illness."

I replied: "Yeah, I think it's a fair comparison. Surely our definitions of super-super-greatness, super-greatness, and greatness (of golfers as much as of golf courses, and possibly more so) have SOMETHING to do with durability -- whether or not that's fair. I believe Venturi had enough time, unencumbered by infirmity, to demonstrate that he deserved a place in the upper upper echelons of golf history -- the way Sandy Koufax proved his ultra-greatness in a relatively short baseball career. Venturi did not do so. Which is surely not meant to be critical of him. As I said: I don't in the least care where Ken Venturi is 'ranked,' once we agree that he doesn't belong in the pantheon. Maybe we need a separate category for Guys Who MIGHT Have Been Gods: Venturi, Tony Lema ...."

You replied: "You call 13 tour wins and a U.S. Open so-so, in a career relatively short, as defined by the date he turned pro and the date of the onset of the Reynauds ?? Did Koufax pitch 5 days a week ? Did Koufax pitch when injured ? Did Team mates carry some of the load ? Your analogy is infirmed, there's no comparison."

I replied: "You with yer goll-durned questions, one after t'other! Here we go agin! Or not! 'Cause I ain't-a goin', boy! (You're absolooootly right, Tom I! I'm feelin' dyyyyyyynamic!)
You show me, Mr. Pat, where I said Venturi was "so-so," and we can continue this conversation. In the meantime, I'll settle for saying what I've said before: Venturi does not belong in the Pantheon of the Greatest of the Great, with Jones, Nicklaus, Hogan, Woods, Nelson, Hagen, Vardon and possibly others. You are perfectly welcome to think otherwise.
Of course, if you do, you could be wrong. N.B.: could be."

You replied: "Tom Paul and I never said he was one of the greats of all time Where did you get that notion from ?
When Dan King said he was a mediocre Pro we took exception to it, and expressed our opinion, never claiming that he was one of the greats of all time, simply that he was a great, not a mediocre player.  We stand, unmoved, behind our position."

Stand there, unmoved -- and while you're doing so, go back and read the last five words of my original post, the one you've felt the need to parry, pointlessly, over and over since.

What's wrong with me, that I can't just ignore you? God, almighty!

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan Kelly,
 
I notice that you don't like having your opinion questioned.

From a very early age, being the rebellious lad that I was,
I always questioned authority, or authoritarian types.

I've learned on this site, that if you make a statement or analogy you have to be prepared to substantiate it.

So don't take offense at the questions, just answer them as best you can.

Were you ever a teacher ?

You could have saved yourself an hour's worth of typing had you read Craig Egmand's post carefully.

I chose, in the interest of brevity, to address you collectively, rather than individually.  If you would reread Craig's post, then reread my response, perhaps you'll understand things better.

I thought the disassembling of your Koufax analogy was logicallly presented.   Don't get infuriated because you made a statement and it was questioned and exposed as flawed.

We all make mistakes, and questionable posts from time to time.  Don't take it so hard, it's not the end of the world.

[Dan Kelly]

Patrick --

Just a few notes:

-- You are wrong that I don't like my opinions questioned.
I don't like my opinions misstated, or ignored.

-- Never been a teacher. Never will be. Couldn't deal with people who won't listen.

-- Copy/paste. Save yourself an hour's typing.

Oh, and I'm done with this now. Should've been done with it long ago.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan Kelly,

I hope you reread Craig's post.

[David Kelly]

P. Mucci wrote:
"The story in Sports Illustrated is interesting, especially the committee part, but my information comes from one of the interested parties, and differs from the Sports Illustrated account."

Yes but the SI article's (actually Augusta Chronicle) source was Venturi himself...

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Kelly,

If Venturi was the source, he was being a gentleman and very diplomatic.

If Venturi was critical of the event, do you think he would have been permited to broadcast the Masters, or exiled vis a vis Gary McCord ?

Ask yourself, knowing the personalities, of all the players, why would Venturi pick Snead ?

Byron Nelson was intimatley involved in the discussion with Cliff Roberts regarding the Venturi situation, and I would think that a private account of what took place would be more accurate than an account meant for the media.

[Bruceski]

Raynaud's Disease or Raynaud's Phenomenon are correctly spelled this way: "Raynaud's".

Raynaud's phenomenon is the occurrence of episodic attacks of well-demarcated blanching (white color) or cyanosis (blue color) of one or more fingers when exposed to cold temperature.

80-90% of patients with scleroderma (systemic sclerosis) display Raynaud's phenomenon. It may be the only symptom of the disease for years. One-third of patients with lupus have Raynaud's phenomenon.

That said, Raynaud's phenomenon can be see in the absence of these diseases. For example, it can be caused by drugs, trauma, blood disorders, thyroid disorders, and neurologic disorders. Or it can be idiopathic (we don't know what causes it).

[david h. carroll]

The cross bunkers at 14 on the East cannot be reached from the blue tees--I've been right up against them, but never there and have never seen anyone come close.  AS to most difficult hole, I'd place #2 or #11 above #12.

[Dan Kelly]

dcarroll --

Thanks for taking this thread down a refreshing new path -- although I'm half-expecting Patrick Mucci to chime in with: "How can you say that the cross bunkers at 14 on the East can be reached from the blue tees?"

But that's just my half-expectation. I could be half-wrong.

 

[Ken_Cotner]

KC as for the dehydration, Bob Cade MD, a nephrologist (The inventor of Gatorade) worked hard on isotonicity of fluids for athletes (At my Alme Mater UF) to determine what was best.  Isotonicity implies that the dissolved content in a liquid approximates serum and enhances absorption.  Check your sports drink bottles and you'll see things like salts and sugars, the carbonation is not in my opinion of a positive value, but makes some more palatable.

So the theory is to replace in proportion what is lost.  If you take too much salt, your body will try to get rid of it with an already depleted hydration status.  (BAD)

An even better idea of Bob Cade's than Gatorade was Hoppin' Gator-an isotonic citrus/malt beverage.  We had it in Gainesville, but it never caught on.  

As expected, it went down easily.    

WARNING! Friendly tweaking of multiple doyens ahead; my tongue is planted firmly in cheek...

Bill, have you actually analyzed Gatorade in a lab to verify it has those salts and sugars?  And were you there when Bob Cade came up with the mixture?

It's my contention that Gatorade is a prime example of the "Gainesville" effect -- much of its appeal stems from the flashy bottle, ubiquitous commercials, and attractive colors.  In other words, the "experience" is much better than the actual "product".  I wouldn't put it in my top 50 drinks.

A citrus/malt beverage?  Can't imagine why that one didn't take the nation by storm...

Humbly,
KC

[BV]

KC

Awesome, man!

You get the ghost writer job for El Tigre.  You been payin' 'attention.

BV