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Tom_Doak

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Rich:

You don't think The Old Course at St. Andrews has texture?

I think you are confusing "texture" with "definition".  (It was your characterization of Brora that made me think this ... I would have chosen another common-land course, Westward Ho!, as having the least definition of any course in the world.)

St. Andrews has lots of textures and color changes to it, from little shaggy mounds to browned-out bumps in the fairways to big patches of gorse and heather.  The fact that they don't form clearly defined borders around the hole in question doesn't mean the texture is not there, it's just used much differently (and much better) than at The Honors Course.

Rich Goodale

Tom

I'm still struggling to understand what you and others mean by "texture."  If you define it as in your last post, Brora has a lot of texture and so does Dornoch and Shinnecok Hills (I assume--only saw it once).  Are you agreeing with Adam, who seems to relate "texture" to the changing of the seasons?  If so, every golf course has "texture" and the distinctions are trivial.

If I remember correctly, "texture" is a term for painting that relates to how the often microscopic layering of paint on canvas adds something of a third dimesion to what is effectively a two-dimensional art form.  I think that this has been extended to painting without any particular physical texture but with compositional "texture."  I don't really understand that concept either, unless it is a surrogate for "composition" or other more traditional terms.

Finally, if there is such a thing as "texture," in golf courses or otherwise, it must apply to all goilf courses, unless you can better define what it means.  The more I think about it, the "texture" your talk about regarding the Old Course is as prevalent or even more prevalent in all the courses I know of in Fife, including non-entities such as Aberdour, Anstruther and Auchterderran.

I see the Old Course as Peter aqccurately sees Dornoch through the pictures on Frank Pont's website--as a piece of old crumpled and unwashed linen.

But, what linens and what crumples, and thank the gods that they remain largely unwashed.......

Rich

Norbert P

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The par 3 11th at Bandon Crossings



This is an intimate hole with plenty of accentuated textures.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 12:39:58 AM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Rich:

Okay, I give up trying to explain it for now.  It would take about twenty pictures with both of us commenting ... or, a simple walk around a golf course.  Perhaps in 2009.

Slag:

There IS texture in that picture, but it's certainly not my favorite kind of texture.  Part of the point of this is that in some places, if you use the right combination of grasses and irrigation, you can achieve just as much texture WITHOUT letting the grass get to where you can't find a ball or hit a shot.  (Disclaimer:  I've never been to Bandon Crossings, so I don't know if the rough is as thick as it looks in that photo.)

Chris Cupit

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Tom

Thanks for the reply.

If, as you seem to imply, "texture" means a variety of visual sensations (colo(u)r, thickness, shape, etc.) I would argue that the best golf courses are those which have the least "texture," i.e. fit most naturally into their native environment.  While not great, Brora has the least "texture" of any golf course I know, and Dornoch and the Old Course and Pacific Dunes and Shinnecock Hills are not far behind.

Is not the lack of "texture" why we all so love brown fairways and greens, particularly at venues wher that is the natural colo(u)r for the time of year, or why Sand HIlls is regarded so highly?

Mark

Those pictures of The Honors Course incite me to avoid rather than seek out that venue.  If that is what is meant by "texture," please count me out.

Cheers

rich

Rich,

I'm not a fan at all of those two pics of the Honors but it is a very good course and a fun day of golf.  If you get near Atlanta or Chattanooga call me and we can check out "texture" first hand. :)  I do think texture exists everywhere of course and it is a matter of degree and emphasis.  I think someone mentioned texture in art and what they described seemed like layering colors on a canvas and I am not sure that is the same thing; but, I confess to being a Phillistine when it comes to the art world.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 12:48:21 PM by Chris Cupit »

Norbert P

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 Tom, the grass would only be attained by a perfectly hit foozle. 

 I chose this picture because it doesn't show much of  the comforting velvet green, thus magnifying the setting.  You should make the effort to go see the course as I think it achieves in a golf course what you often seek.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2008, 12:41:08 AM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
  And I can't believe that nobody - NOBODY - has mentioned runrigs !!!
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Rich Goodale

Thanks for trying Tom.  I can be thick at times, but I am just trying to learn.  Let me know if and when you'll be in Scotland in 2009 and maybe we can get together for a walk around some particularly textured course.

Chris

Thanks for the kind offer.  Vis a vis the Honors Course, I was only (over?)reacting to the pictures.  I know from you and others that I respect that it is a fine course, and next time I'm near there I'll let you know, but don't wait by the phone, as the last time I was in Tennesee was 1983.... :)

Cheers

rich

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Rich,

If you're being thick, then I'm thicker.  It seems that "texture" means lots of different grasses (Natural? I'd sort of assumed that any habitat would have dominant grass strains.).  That seems to exclude most of the courses I've played and consider great or very good.  I look at pictures of "textured" courses on this thread and see ordinary golf holes lipsticked with random areas of "interesting" grasses.  If that's what texture is, it's low on my list of what I look for in a course.

Mark
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Bourgeois


In construction, oftentimes the shapers try to do too much themselves, because we haven't added the texture yet and they don't understand it ... they are trying to "define" everything with dirt landforms, because it's all one color and texture while they are working on it. 


This quote is absolutely fascinating and all day I've been thinking it gets at one of those "secrets" Tom Doak designers carry with them.  That and Tom's "20 pictures" reference indicate this is "deep architecture" and more than simple cosmetics.

Like Mark P, it's still a struggle to understand the importance in a functional sense; it seems from Chris's and Tom's comments to get at something beyond window dressing.

Here a mental picture of an amateur on a bulldozer endlessly swirling the dirt into patty cakes until the architect shows up and screams, "Stop!  Nobody's going to see this under the grass..."

Great stuff everyone!

Mark

PS Rich, word on the street is if you do make it to TN take out extra from the ATM before teeing it up agin the mighty Chris C.

PPS Slag, runrig?

Don_Mahaffey

Good visual texture on a golf course is when you have differeing heights of grasses and plants, some cut, some not, but within each "zone" you have varying colors, growth habit, and leaf type. And most importartly the zones need to meld together in such a way that edges are not defined.

Mono stand zones that are stacked to the horizon don't do it for me. That's just differing plant material use to define or frame.

Mark Bourgeois

Pictures, Don?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0

In construction, oftentimes the shapers try to do too much themselves, because we haven't added the texture yet and they don't understand it ... they are trying to "define" everything with dirt landforms, because it's all one color and texture while they are working on it. 


This quote is absolutely fascinating and all day I've been thinking it gets at one of those "secrets" Tom Doak designers carry with them.  That and Tom's "20 pictures" reference indicate this is "deep architecture" and more than simple cosmetics.

Like Mark P, it's still a struggle to understand the importance in a functional sense; it seems from Chris's and Tom's comments to get at something beyond window dressing.

Here a mental picture of an amateur on a bulldozer endlessly swirling the dirt into patty cakes until the architect shows up and screams, "Stop!  Nobody's going to see this under the grass..."

Great stuff everyone!

Mark

PS Rich, word on the street is if you do make it to TN take out extra from the ATM before teeing it up agin the mighty Chris C.

PPS Slag, runrig?

Mark

So far as I can tell, the texture deal is a landscape/gardener pass on.  My wife is forever going on about different vegetation heights, shapes and colours being distinguishable throughout the year as adding essential texture to the garden.  I can't say that I disagree with her, though I am just the guy who cuts the grass and pulls, trims and trains what I am told to!

Ciao   
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 06:47:50 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Mark Bourgeois

Amen to that.  An "English garden" looks nothing so much like a scraggly bunch of weeds to this fellow mule.  But if Tom D says it will take 20 pictures or a full tour, then what we have here is failure to communicate.  Well, failure to understand.

Peter Pallotta

Mark - if good communicators like Rich and Tom have to resort to using pictures to make themselves clear, it suggests that either texture doesn't actually mean texture, or that it does mean texture but making that texture work the way Tom envisions it has everything to do with execution (skilled, expert, talented execution) and nothing to do with anything else.

Just trying to be helpful....

Peter 

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Slag, runrig?

Mark, runrigs are a sort of washboard effect on fairways. I believe Brancepeth Castle is famous for them.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Slag, runrig?

Mark, runrigs are a sort of washboard effect on fairways. I believe Brancepeth Castle is famous for them.
Sounds like you're talking about what we call rig and furrow.  My home club (about 20 miles from Brancepeth has them too, as does Alwoodley.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Bourgeois

Mark

How could we forget your fantastic "angle of incidence" analysis post BUDA 2006?

Peter, what if texture is a way to show contour in two dimensions, as contour lines written rather than sculpted, the product of planning? Is landscape architecture architecture?

Mark

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