[Sean_A]

I don't like the idea of changing my shoes in the parking lot, drinking from a bottle, not having a locker or not being able to take a shower if I so choose, so I guess I ain't a purist.  I want a comfortable, clean and characterful clubhouse that serves a decent brew, red, breakfast, soup, sandwich and perhaps the odd roast.  Hell, I don't mind walking to the bar so the waitress can get the axe!  Think of Swinley and Bob's yer uncle.  In fact, think of Swinley for how the course is presented as well.  No nonsense with very little fat or waste - except for the course is largely wasted because the club could use a lot more members.  I don't begrudge if others want more, but I would be upset if my club turned from low keyish to an all singing all dancing tennis, pool and full restaurant(s) joint with bars in locker rooms and a gaggle of pros roaming the grounds in carts.  I just ain't interested in paying for that sort of thing and I wouldn't join a club like it - though its fine if others want it - its no skin off my nose.  

I have friends who are bemoaning the fact that their subs are going up to £850 pa next year - and these are guys who play a fair few rounds.  Even the minimal UK model is a struggle with steeply rising subs every year these past 10 years.  Jeepers, Burnham just canceled Sky because it was seen as useless expense of £5000 a year!

Ciao

[Mike_Young]

 .

JS Payne,
As a professional fat guy I'm eating chocolate ice cream as I write....and t's all over the keys...I ride as much as I walk and I don't consider myself a purist by any means......no hickory shafts etc.....but I think carpet can last 20 years in a clubhouse. I think you can have a good cook in a kitchen instead of chef making blue snapper sandwiches smothered in underwear or some other mix.   I don't need oak raised panel dividers at $1500 each between the urinals in our locker room.... I think you should be able to get a golf lesson leisurely from the pro w/o having to be set up on a monitor in a separate section with a house for all of the fitting sets etc...and not that these things are not nice or needed at specific times.....ALL I ASK IS THAT EACH LINE ITEM BE ABLE TO JUSTFY ITS EXISTENCE.....but for most of us the golf has to subsidize such.....including weddings , banquets etc.....if more of the dues can go to golf then we are all better and more efficient......I resent my dues being increased because some guy on the board only knows golf from what he sees at a resort or at one of his buddies Real Estate development clubs and wants to come back and push it on a 100 year old club.....thats all....

Mike.....and others......I think this is where the big distinguishing factor comes in to play. To me, there is a big difference in running and being a part of private courses versus public. And the difference lies in those exact names. Public courses should, and often do, cater to the PUBLIC, i.e. the masses and the "average" golfer I talk about. Public golf and any golf courses defined as such are what I mainly profess about being something for everyone, because it's public dollars that keep those courses alive. Same with resort courses.

Private courses are a different beef. Being now behind the scenes in public golf as opposed to being at private courses for the whole rest of my career, I'm definetely starting to believe in the saying, "If you ever want something to never get done, form a committee to discuss how it should be done." This is the real problem with privates: they lack solid, stated character. In my humble opinion, people should join private courses because of what the course offers. If you want something different, find a different club. Too many try to come in, or have been there forever, and want to bring their own agendas. It is near impossible to cater to everyone's  personal needs and this is where money can get lost. I think the private courses that struggle are the ones who forget who they are and try to be like everyone else. The most powerful and stable clubs seem to me to be the ones steeped in history, character, loyal dedicated members and stand firmly by what they claim to be....be it just a golf course, or a family facility, or a prime tournament venue. But each has it's own model.

What I think most on this board seem to complain about is either (1) their home/favorite course is either being driven away from what it originally was by a small group of influential members and they're desperate to hold onto the club's character or (2) they're one of those ones who joined a club because it was either convenient or was in their price range, and then want to come in and make it into what they want, for selfish reasons.

In either case, public or private, the key is still the same simple reasoning I orginally stated: let's not be selfish. There's nothing wrong with wanting what we want, and sometimes it may be hard to make the decision to get up and leave and have to go somewhere else to find it, but take a long hard look at who really makes up the majority at your course.....who keeps the club financially afloat......and cater to them. Because even if you get your wish of a smaller clubhouse, that doesn't host big events anymore and instead of a chef a cook who's expertise is only to make "one killer hot dog", you may very well find yourself asking why all of a sudden the condition of your beloved course has gone down the crapper when all the outside tournaments you hate take their business elsewhere and all the men with families get pressured by their wives to join the club down the street because they have a gym for her and a pool for the kids and all of a sudden your super has half the budget, half the staff and can't afford fertilizer for anything but the greens anymore.
[/quote]

JS,
I agree with the basis for your post......with a few notes.....say a person is a member and really doesn't play much golf and has dues of $400 base per month.......well if he eats at a club once a month vs. a local restaurant it cost him an extra $400 for that meal.....in other words food can't compete with a town with a couple of hundred local restaurants unless one is a golfer......I just can't buy the banquet business making money......w/o subsidies whether golf or something else......AND all I ask is that whatever is done is done in an efficient manner and not some exorbitant extreme because one saw it at a resort...be it a locker room or a kitchen or a health club or practice area......JMO

[SB]

After looking around, I think for most big metro areas, there's room for 2 or 3 "purist" clubs.  The rest of the clubs are filled with married guys who need their wives approval or people who want the other stuff.  Someone once told me that 80% of time, the final decision to join or not join a club is made by the wife.  I'm not sure where that figure came from, but I don't think it's far off.  And there's a lot of reason for that, including the high cost of a club.  That said, you don't need 110,000 SF(!) to sell to the wife.  All you need is a pool and tennis.  Not a huge investment.  Fitness is nice, and usually can pay for itself.  

Banquets are interesting.  I've seen a lot of good ones, and a lot of not so good ones.  If you're looking at the building cost, then nothing makes sense, including the golf.  But I will say that banquet facilities don't cost $200/sf to build (it's just a big empty room), and they can often make a lot of money.  I've seen more than a few courses that would do well to shut down the golf course and just run the banquet facility.

[Greg Murphy]

I've read that the Club Manager’s Association of America and the National Club Association have stats showing that 59 percent of clubs in the United States show a loss in their food-and-beverage operations, 7 percent break even and only 34 percent report a profit. Imagine an industry where only a third of the operations show a profit. It can only survive if subsidized by something else. And I bet this picture is rosier than reality. As Mike has noted, there is rarely any cost accounting done on these operations. If costs were fairly allocated to the facility and management expenses required to offer this service, my bet is the number of profitable operations would be single digit and the return on investment would be very, very unappealing.

Nine out of ten avid golfers simply seek a fun golf course that won't break the bank, with an intimate place to kick back after the round with a cold beer and occasionally a burger. It is true that avid golfers make up the smallest segment of golfers so many facilities are designed to cater to the largest segment, i.e., occasional golfers, but there's a problem—while occasional golfers represent the largest player segment, they spend the least amount per player per year and represent the smallest total expenditures. Core golfers (8-25 rounds) spend five times as much as occasional golfers and avid golfers spend almost twice as much as core golfers, i.e., every avid golfer (purist) is worth more than ten occasional golfers. Catering to occasional golfers is a losing game but moving players from occasional to core and core to avid is what is needed for the game to thrive and this will not be done by focusing on anything ancillary to the game itself.

[Rob Rigg]

It seems like Purists have their courses, and the masses flock there as well (if possible)

- Almost anywhere in Scotland and the rest of GBI
- Bandon Dunes
- Other walking only courses not hurting in the wallet

Obviously private courses created for purists are succeeding as well;
- Ballyneal
- CPC
- Sand Hills
- etc.

Not that this is the "right" model for everyone, but it does seem to work does it not?

[JMEvensky]

Pensacola CC is having a bit of a problem handling the $7M debt we have taken on since Hurricane Ivan.  Seems the economy is in the tank and we have lost 20+ members in the past few months instead of adding the many members confidently projected so that we could meet our budget.

Every time I see a P&L there is no mention of interest expense, which I figure is running $30-40K a month.

We just finished building the new tennis facility with fitness center, $1.8M.  There are two kitchens in the new clubhouse, one on top of the other, but the waiters have to carry the food to the men's grill through the upstairs dining room.

There is not a bar anywhere in the clubhouse where you can sit and have a drink.  I swear to god I am not making this up.

Monthly dues are $295 plus 7.5% tax plus $125/mo for "debt reduction" plus plus plus plus......young guys were told their monthly costs as "junior executive members" would be ~$350, reality is over $800 if they have a few drinks and ride a cart every now and then.

I see bankruptcy down the road as the board that came in a few years ago has boxed the club into a corner I'm not sure it can escape.  Too bad, the new golf course is terrific!  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/mhcpcc.html

Is this an unusual story?

Mr. McBride,is PCC member owned?The reason I ask is that,if it is,wasn't there a vote before the $7MM of improvements?Could a board be authorized to spend that much without membership approval?

With all the usual caveats of not knowing the specifics,your dues+capital assessment seems to mean either a pretty large membership or a pretty aggressive set of new member assumptions.Losing ~ 20 members shouldn't be catastrophic.

[Jim_Kennedy]

..."stats showing that 59 percent of clubs in the United States show a loss in their food-and-beverage operations"......34 percent report a profit.... Imagine an industry where only a third of the operations show a profit. 

Greg Murphy,

I can, it's the same as the failure rate for off-course restaurants, over a 3 year period they fail (lose money) at that same 59% rate. When you get to the 10 year sample the off-course failure (lose money) rate jumps to 70%.

About the same percent of restaurants are profitable, on or off course.

[Steve Lang]

  and for most purists, we know where to go for what we want.. the heritage is perpetual, like a good pastrami sandwich at Katz's



And in case you're a history buff, Katz's was opened on NYC' Lower East SIde way back in 1888 by a Russian immigrant family.

so let's let the purists play golf at purist venues, everyone else.. where ever they can enjoy it

[Greg Murphy]

About the same percent of restaurants are profitable, on or off course.

Very interesting, Jim. What do we make of these numbers?

Seems like the food and beverage business is a tough one on or off the course. I think there are some differences, though.

In the real world, no one is forced to go to a particular restaurant or pub. On the other hand, most clubs have annual or monthly mandatory food and beverage assessments so there is a base level of guaranteed revenue.

I am a member of a club that generated $1.6 million in fee revenue in 2006. It spent about $700,000 to maintain the course that year (5-6 month golf season). The restaurant lost $40,000 (on $570,000 sales) and the bar lost $5,000 (on $205,000 sales -- loss would have been more if not for a gift of $11,000 of unused assessments) which doesn't seem too bad except the financials don't allocate any rent or amortization or utilities or taxes or management expenses, etc., against the food and beverage operations. The club just spent $4.3 million to renovate its clubhouse facility and I'm predicting at the next AGM the board and management will be spinning a wondrous tale about how successful the recent investment has been, focusing exclusively on increases in F&B revenues (which I'm guessing will be way up, maybe even spectacularly, because of increased capacity to host weddings and christmas office parties), but there is no way they will allocate any of the $4.3M amortization or any of the "building operations" expenses (previously $140,000) to those operations, nor will they allocate any of the more than $200,000 in management expenses to those operations. The true cost of running F&B is w-a-a-a-a-a-a-y more than what is shown. It seems like a very, very bad business and can only survive by taxing the golfers. Dues at the club are up 15% this coming year and I bet will have to increase another 15% the following year to pay the bills.

F&B at a golf course doesn't look like a business at all, really, but rather an amenity like the golf course that every member pays for whether they want to utilize it or not. In fact, management is in a tough spot because if F&B could be run to generate a healthy profit, members would claim they were being gouged and would demand lower pricing. Once capital is invested in facilities, there is very little choice but to chase non-core business such as weddings and christmas parties to try to justify the original investment. And if there is a shortfall, just tax the membership by increasing fees to make it up. With little competition and a growing economy, club's are able to tax the membership at will. Anyone "too cheap" to pay can just hit the road. But that luxury of being able to tax at will may be ending. I'm seeing some of these "cheap" members leaving at my club and really believe it would be an exodus if there was any true choice, i.e., if the area had good golf without all the baggage, but it doesn't, so the club is safe for now.

[Dr Katz]

Mr Lang, I would have to say the single reason I am such an accomplished psychiatrist is I was weaned on delicious pastrami sandwiches.

Dr Katz

[Andy Troeger]

It seems like Purists have their courses, and the masses flock there as well (if possible)

- Almost anywhere in Scotland and the rest of GBI
- Bandon Dunes
- Other walking only courses not hurting in the wallet

Obviously private courses created for purists are succeeding as well;
- Ballyneal
- CPC
- Sand Hills
- etc.

Not that this is the "right" model for everyone, but it does seem to work does it not?

It works if you build a world class golf course. I believe there are examples where the course hasn't been as good and the monetary aspect hasn't done quite as well.

[Steve Lang]

Mr Lang, I would have to say the single reason I am such an accomplished psychiatrist is I was weaned on delicious pastrami sandwiches.

Dr Katz

Dr. K,  and i a chem/environmental engineer..  go figure.. so how shall I rationalize that?  Do gastronomical factors impact adoption of mental acuity and bandwith which drives purist ideology or is it just regular movements?

for me, memories of good deli far exceed the psuedo gormet post-round fair at most golfing venues.. a double whiskey in a leather chair or an ice tea on the patio would be fine thankyou.. i don't need a chef making me food thankyou..

[Rob Rigg]

I wonder if the lean times will change the current "status quo" so "non-World Class" walking only courses will do better due to lower maintenance costs and more minimalistic designs versus expensive cart-path ridden courses with waterfalls and tons and tons of earth works that are carrying huge debt?

If the "non-purist" courses beging to fail because those golfers a) are the first to take their discretionary income elsewhere and b) cannot pay $150-$200 per round, then maybe purist courses will do better and more golfers will be converted away from the dark side . . .

Probably wishful thinking, but IMO it would be great for the game in the US.

[Bill_McBride]

Pensacola CC is having a bit of a problem handling the $7M debt we have taken on since Hurricane Ivan.  Seems the economy is in the tank and we have lost 20+ members in the past few months instead of adding the many members confidently projected so that we could meet our budget.

Every time I see a P&L there is no mention of interest expense, which I figure is running $30-40K a month.

We just finished building the new tennis facility with fitness center, $1.8M.  There are two kitchens in the new clubhouse, one on top of the other, but the waiters have to carry the food to the men's grill through the upstairs dining room.

There is not a bar anywhere in the clubhouse where you can sit and have a drink.  I swear to god I am not making this up.

Monthly dues are $295 plus 7.5% tax plus $125/mo for "debt reduction" plus plus plus plus......young guys were told their monthly costs as "junior executive members" would be ~$350, reality is over $800 if they have a few drinks and ride a cart every now and then.

I see bankruptcy down the road as the board that came in a few years ago has boxed the club into a corner I'm not sure it can escape.  Too bad, the new golf course is terrific!  http://www.golfclubatlas.com/mhcpcc.html

Is this an unusual story?

Mr. McBride,is PCC member owned?The reason I ask is that,if it is,wasn't there a vote before the $7MM of improvements?Could a board be authorized to spend that much without membership approval?

With all the usual caveats of not knowing the specifics,your dues+capital assessment seems to mean either a pretty large membership or a pretty aggressive set of new member assumptions.Losing ~ 20 members shouldn't be catastrophic.

Member owned, about 400 full members, down from 425 plus 75 house and tennis members.  The membership did vote but there was quite a bit of creep in the actual construction costs plus, as you mentioned, unrealistic membership growth assumptions that have run into reality.  It's not a pretty picture as the economy continues to weaken nationwide and locally.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()