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Carter Hindes

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Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2008, 11:12:28 AM »
I completely agree with you Tony.  That is why selecting a good bermudagrass for a green is so important.  I don't know anyone who has promoted grain.
Carter Hindes

Bradley Anderson

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Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2008, 01:28:22 PM »
Tom,

The older greens that were weeded with South German or Washington bent had a tremendous amount of variation in them. The South German bent seed was collected from wild patches of bent scattered here and there in the woods of Germany. So on one green you could have all kinds of different variations of South German bentgrass. And one grass might be laying more one direction than a stand of grass beside it. Personally I love that look. However I do not agree that it is harder putting. In fact it can be easier to line up a putt on these kinds of greens than it can on a green with no genetic variation.

With Huntington Valley I'm not certain if those greens were built from seed. Connellan was the guy who was called in to get them in good shape, back in 1920 or thereabouts, and he had his own special methods of propagating grass vegetatively.

In either case, those greens may not be as grainy as you think they are. Or the grasses on those greens just may be maintainable with some grain in them. Also I can't rule out the possibility that Scott has them so extraordinarily dry and firm that the issues which grain create are not as problematic. But that wouldn't work during rainy spells.

I can just say from experience that true grain, the kind that runs with leaf blades laying down and growing over 3/16's of an inch in length, are slow and erratic. What is more, they will scalp on the edges when it gets humid. When the clean up pass gets grain in it, it will scalp.

I'm not saying that it is impossible as it has been described here, but I can say with certainty that promoting grain on greens is something that will not work for most clubs.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 01:30:37 PM by Bradley Anderson »

JESII

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Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2008, 02:56:44 PM »
I am under the impression that blade length has a pro rata correlation to root length...am I wrong?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 03:39:55 PM by Jim Sullivan »

Steve Lang

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Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2008, 03:50:38 PM »
 8) summer in SE TX.. 5 pm tee time.. 95°F, relative humidity 75%, but it'll get cooler (everything is relative) as the copper kettle sunset comes along..

the bermuda has been growing all day.. been a while since the greens were cut.. a quick glance at the hole's edges and the gloss of the green is all that's necessary to help estimate the grain's impact on path..

hear it rip heading into the grain, watch it bend as it dies, play it strong and/or play it sure,.. beware

what fun.. priceless sweat
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

TEPaul

Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2008, 03:54:37 PM »
Sully:

My recollection may not be great but it seems to me that's essentially what Linc Roden thought when he took over things back then. As you heard Scott say the other night, Linc did a whole lot of his own research on these kinds of things. How reliable any or all of it was I have no idea but I'm sure Scott would.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2008, 11:09:51 AM »
I am under the impression that blade length has a pro rata correlation to root length...am I wrong?

Do any superintendents care to weigh in?

Michael Rossi

Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2008, 12:19:07 PM »
To keep it easy.

Plant size or type, soil conditions and time of season has more to do with root lenght or mass.

A long or deep root is a result of the plants growth characteristics. Poa annua shallow root, bentgrass deeper root.

A plant that is being maintained at its ideal hieght of cut (HOC) is going to have a larger mass than a plant being maintained at a lower HOC, because the plant needs more root mass to supply itself.

So yes leaf blade size plays a role, but it is relative to its needs.

MR

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2008, 02:07:08 PM »

Grain = Inconsistent

And there is absolutely no way to control grain or manage a green with grain to be consistent and roll true. Grain occurs in a very organic and random nature. There is no way to manage it, there is no way to design for it and there is no way to learn how to golf it. Grain can change directions dozens of times between the ball and the hole in a shot and those same directions can even change themselves throughout the course of a single growing day. Golfing on grainy greens introduces a lot of luck into the putting game.

The phrases "managing grain" or "promoting grain" seem absurd to me and go against anything I was trained or mentored to do in my entire career. Even as a golfer I expect to putt on grain when I go to the local muni or a course that I know has a next to nothing budget. If Im playing at a top notch facility I expect to see my ball to roll where I aimed it and without a bounce. The first thing I look for when playing at different facilities is leaf blades laying over one another on the putting green.

Every facility has different budgets and different expectations. I honestly dont see a place for grain at a facility that expects "championship conditions". And I know some may scoff at the term "championship conditions" but it is a valid term and it does exist. Because theres nothing "championship" about greens that are inconsistent and bumpy. Those greens are an embarrassment.



I am under the impression that blade length has a pro rata correlation to root length...am I wrong?

Do any superintendents care to weigh in?


Thats the basic rule of thumb for any plant life, but in its natural state. Theres nothing natural at all about maintaining grass on greens. All grass and plants alike want to grow high enough to produce seed so that it can regenerate. That doesnt happen when grass is getting cut everyday at the height its getting cut at, except for poa. And even with poa the super is constantly preventing it seeding with chemicals.

My philosophy about the HOC is on the aggressive side. I do mow greens down at .90 and .80. I can do it, be comfortable with it and sleep well at night. HOC is directly correlated to the plants physiology. The grass needs enough root mass to support the stresses that it endures. And it doesnt occur magically. The grass plant produces naturally occurring hormones that promote and control root development in relation to grass development.

Gibberelins
Auxins
Cytokinens

The plant naturally produce these hormones, and they produce them in a certain ratio. A certain amount of Gibbs occur in the leaf blades, a certain amount of Auxins are around the crown and a certain amount of Cytos are around the roots. The cytos and gibbs translocate back and forth from the blades to the roots with the auxins acting as the liason in the middle (the crown) directing traffic between the two.

The super is completely throwing off that required ratio by cutting the greens everyday at a low HOC. And while that ratio is being cut off the green is under stress using up its carbohydrate reserves and thats when the roots start to become shallower. The plant is going into self preservation mode.

The reason I feel comfortable mowing greens so low is because every spray has organic fertilizers in it. Seaweed / Kelp extract, Humic Acids etc. These set up the foundation for reincorporating the naturally occurring substances (Ctyos, Auxins, Gibbs) found in the plant that is being lost due to growing grass in its unnatural state.

 


Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2008, 02:54:28 PM »
Before we had started construction on the Reef Club on Grand Bahama Island, before RTJII had done the design, I asked him to see if most of the downhill putts could be towards the west, or at least SW.  The reason was so no one from New York could come into the shop after their game and say "that putt on 8 ran uphill,  the grain was so strong".  My intent was for uphill putts to be into the grain (E) and downhill putts with the grain (W). 
We got it about half right.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Kyle Harris

Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2008, 05:35:20 PM »

The phrases "managing grain" or "promoting grain" seem absurd to me and go against anything I was trained or mentored to do in my entire career.



Bingo.

Guess we can all learn something new. Eh?  ;)

TEPaul

Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2008, 06:31:10 PM »
Ian:

Clearly the guy who originally promoted the entire F&F turnaround of HVGC over 25 years ago did not think promoting grain was an absurd idea. He loved the idea and that playability because he felt it was a restoration of an old-fashioned and pretty complex and challenging playability factor.

But not many probably agreed with him on that. I remember when I was playing the course one time during the Mason Dixon Matches with the super of the club from the Mid-Atlantic to host the Mason Dixon Matches the next year I told him about that at HVGC and he looked at me incredulously and said: "What, the whole world of golf and agronomy is trying to minimize grain and this course is trying to maximize it???" 

All I could tell him was it was true as he was shortly to find out.

Frankly, I never paid much attention to it except on one green----#15. On the back with certain pins it was amazing to putt the grain was so pronounced in certain spots.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2008, 07:41:37 PM »
Hypothetically...do deeper, stronger roots enable the plant to survive better in low water circumstances?

Chris Tritabaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2008, 12:03:13 PM »
I used to think of grain as a evil thing that must be eliminated and/or reduced. Since becoming a Superintendent and working to dry out and firm up the golf course I have changed my opinion and management practices.

The slope on the greens at Northland is very pronounced and the severity of that slope is magnified by the extreme slope of the property. Even greens which appear flat have a good deal of slope. The old varieties of bentgrass found on our greens are grainy, especially when running down hill. After my first and a good portion of my second year I realized that fighting inevitable grain was going to be a losing battle and the benefits of allowing the greens to be a little grainy would outweigh the drawbacks. We mow our greens higher than many private clubs, which is naturally going to promote more grain. I once read something that said an increase of .005" in height of cut (HOC) can increase root mass by as much as 1/3, please don't quote me on this. With a higher HOC we can keep the greens much drier and in my opinion a dry green is a smooth green. For us speed is not as important as being smooth. If you allow a green to have grain this can allow for even more leaf surface, which once again creates more rooting and allows for drier conditions. In addition to all of this allowing some grain along with keeping drier conditions will, in time, help the bentgrass to out compete the Poa. In our climate the less Poa you have the less likely you are to have poor condition in the spring.

As far as putting conditions go; the down hill putts are probably a little faster and the up hill putts are probably a little slower. 95% of our grain runs down hill so its not too difficult to read. In fact many of the greens slope with the property more so than the slope you eyes see on the green. If a player reads the grain they should always know where a putt will break. 

Bruce Leland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2008, 09:28:54 AM »
Chris:

I was wondering if you were going to post on this thread.  I've played numerous rounds at Northland with members who consider the grain on the greens as well as the break when evaluating putts.  It is the only course in the Midwest that I've ever heard of this phenomonon.  If it exists at NCC, and I'm not saying that it doesn't, I sure haven't figured it out.

I've played a fair bit on Bermuda with grain and it has a much more pronounced effect on the speed and break than anything I've ever experienced at Northland.  I'll take it on your word that it exists on your watch and presume that it existed there before you arrived.  As I've said repeatedly, Northland has some of the most interesting and confounding putting surfaces I've played.  How much of that is due to grain I still can't say.
"The mystique of Muirfield lingers on. So does the memory of Carnoustie's foreboding. So does the scenic wonder of Turnberry and the haunting incredibility of Prestwick, and the pleasant deception of Troon. But put them altogether and St. Andrew's can play their low ball for atmosphere." Dan Jenkins

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2008, 10:20:22 AM »
Chris,

Thanks for that post.



Kyle,

You must have a few pictures illustrating the grain at HVCC...Tom Paul's mention of #15 in the back left is spot on because it shows very distinctly that the grain just goes downhill...

Eric Morrison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2008, 11:46:53 AM »
Ian- What climate are you in and what types of grasses do you have?

Jim S. - to answer your question...hypothetically...yes.
It is what it is.

Kyle Harris

Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2008, 11:55:52 AM »
Chris,

Thanks for that post.



Kyle,

You must have a few pictures illustrating the grain at HVCC...Tom Paul's mention of #15 in the back left is spot on because it shows very distinctly that the grain just goes downhill...

I do have them actually. I need to dig and will get them after the holiday.

....you can see it on an aerial photo... for the record.

Chris Tritabaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2008, 02:08:31 PM »
Chris:
I've played a fair bit on Bermuda with grain and it has a much more pronounced effect on the speed and break than anything I've ever experienced at Northland.  I'll take it on your word that it exists on your watch and presume that it existed there before you arrived.  As I've said repeatedly, Northland has some of the most interesting and confounding putting surfaces I've played.  How much of that is due to grain I still can't say.

When I got to Northland I heard a lot of the grain. "The grain pulled that putt up hill", was an oft heard comment. IMHO, grain on cool-season grasses is not strong enough to pull a put up hill. Northland essentially has a mountain affect, where the actual slope and what your eyes tell you is the slope, is not the same thing. Because the greens have no internal drainage and therefore rely on surface drainage, the grain of the grass runs with the slope and the drainage. Often people see the grain going downhill, which to them looks up hill and feel the grain caused their putt to break up hill.

To answer your question Bruce. IMHO, the grain on our greens is because of the confounding putting surfaces, not the other way around.

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2008, 02:17:45 PM »
This is the tool that I use to reduce grain on greens - to cultivate a leaf blade that is growing more vertical than lateral.

You can see that the tool also lifts some of the excess leaf tissue out of the turf to reduce the amount of leaves that the ball travels over.

I suppose that one could say that he is "promoting grain" in his greens, and yet still use this kind of tool from time to time to reduce the length of leaves that are laying laterally. Maybe what that person means by the term "grain" is a green that has more segregated patches of grasses that are laying in different directions all within the scope of one putting path. But that does not necessaily mean that all the leaves on the green are laying completely lateral. Or does it?


Bradley Anderson

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Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2008, 02:20:56 PM »
A closer view.

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2008, 02:29:50 PM »
Because the greens have no internal drainage and therefore rely on surface drainage, the grain of the grass runs with the slope and the drainage. Often people see the grain going downhill, which to them looks up hill and feel the grain caused their putt to break up hill.

Chris,

Sorry but I'm confused. Are you defining grain as the grass that is growing perpendicular with the ground contour? Are you saying that grass which is growing 90 degrees to the ground contour is "grain" by virtue of the fact that the ground is canted or sloped?

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2008, 02:35:21 PM »
Aha.  A real live verticutter picture!

I was getting ready to ask what any of the superintendents did to address grain, since I had not seen a single mention of "verticutting" anywhere in the thread.  Verticutting has been around an awful long time (30 years?  40 years?), although in my ignorance, I had not seen a triplex verticutter until the pics above.

As a practical matter, in typical midwestern climates, verticutting 2 or 3 times a year (does anybody do it more than that?) means suboptimal conditions for the better part of those three weeks (although verticut greens are much more playable, and recover faster, than aerified greens), and so if you are determined to verticut, you have to accept a little down-time with your course...

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2008, 02:43:10 PM »
Chuck,

We verticut every other week, there is no down time.  After cleaning the mess and topdressing, golfers are on it immediately, and the putting is great.  We don't even have to delay tee times, we do it all out in front of golfers.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2008, 02:47:22 PM »
Chuck,

As recently as five years ago the Keeper of the Green at St. Andrews was still brooming the greens with bundles of branches that were tied together into a kind of broom arrangement, for the removal of grain. It is my understanding that this practice goes all the way back for as long as men have been taking care of St. Andrews.

I'm pretty sure that if you go back to the old USGA Green Sections from the 1920's you will find articles about grain removal. I know I have read them somewhere.

Basically controlling grain is as basic to greenkeeping as it gets.

In Chicago I used to verticut once a year in November. I had C-15 greens that were very sensitive to verticutting, but at that time of year I could verticut safely without spreading disease. Here in the Detriot area I verticutted three or four times. Every course is different.

Some of the newer mowers have Groomers which you can run two or three days a week, and they also control grain very well. I like the verticutter, because it makes a nice bed for a moderately heavy sand application.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2008, 02:53:08 PM by Bradley Anderson »

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Grain on greens
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2008, 02:51:37 PM »
Chuck,

We verticut every other week, there is no down time.  After cleaning the mess and topdressing, golfers are on it immediately, and the putting is great.  We don't even have to delay tee times, we do it all out in front of golfers.

Greg,

On those intervals are you going two directions or one?