[Ian Andrew]

I noticed that there has been very few in my opinion pieces in the last 6 months. I wrote one about a year and a half back on the architectural evolution of Stanley Thompson. For me, the reason I haven’t added another piece is time and appropriate topic. I now have “too much” time on my hands and will probably add another piece – if acceptable to Ran and Ben. The likely topic is the renovation of Jasper. I have all the original images, the renovation plan and a good resource to turn to for help.

Have any of you thought about writing a piece? What would you write on if you were going to add your own opinion piece?

What topic would you most like to see someone else covered? Is there someone here you would like to encourage to write a piece?

I seem to remember Ran - at one point - talking about paying people like Klein and Shackelford write pieces for the site. Was it at the start of the year perhaps? I think the idea was to generate enough income to do so.

I happen to enjoy this section and recently re-read Dunlop White’s essays – and that got me thinking about the fact that very little has been written recently. Is this because many more people are publishing their work, or has Paul Daley’s excellent collection of books drawn the talent from the site and too him? Just wondering why so little has been added in recent time.

[John Moore II]

Well, if I had to guess as to why not many pieces have been written recently, I would look to the war that was waged on here back mid-year between Tom Paul, Morrison, MacWood and Moriarty. I should say that the fighting caused by Moriarty's piece may have caused other people to shy away from submitting any publishable material.

I had considered writing something dealing with the evolution of architecture and how it can be seen in the NC Sandhills region, working from Ross-Ellis Maples-Dan Maples and a few other 'trees' of architects I put down on paper. But since I no longer live down in that area, it has become harder to play the courses necessary for me to write an effective and accurate piece about this.

[Jed Peters]

When is Jasper set to be renovated? I have plans to play the place this July, hope it's done by then?

[Sean_A]

Ian

I know the Merion thread put me off doing any piece for In My Opinion.  I know that is a rather selfish attitude, but its honest.  I had rather hoped (and thought) that this section would become a point counter point area to some degree, like that older mags with archies and critics writing in response pieces.  Arts & Crafts and Merion were perfect opportunities for this to take off, but instead it went personal.  It has become clear that if someone wants to write about a controversial subject he had better conduct research as if he were writing a dissertation (rather than treating the piece as an ongoing and updatable) and/or be ready for a verbal assault.  More is the pity, but that is how some folks seem to want it.  Some folks don't seem to understand that writing one of these things is a lot of hard work if one's reward is a public rubbishing.   

Ciao

[Phil_the_Author]

For what it is worth, I have one that Ran will be putting up some time after the new year. It is about Tllinghast the man and is quite long at over 16,000 words and includes 21 photos & graphic images. Because of its length and number of images Ran has waited to post it until he updates the sites programming (something already planned).

I believe there are some others that fall into this category as well. So don't hold back and write away!

[Ian Andrew]

When is Jasper set to be renovated? I have plans to play the place this July, hope it's done by then?

Jed,

It was done right after Banff was built.

[Ian Andrew]

It has become clear that if someone wants to write about a controversial subject he had better conduct research as if he were writing a dissertation (rather than treating the piece as an ongoing and updatable) and/or be ready for a verbal assault.  More is the pity, but that is how some folks seem to want it.  Some folks don't seem to understand that writing one of these things is a lot of hard work if one's reward is a public rubbishing.   

Sean,

Wow - you explaination probably speaks for many people.


Phil,

We all look forward to your piece on Tilly.

[Adam Clayman]

Ian, Isn't it true that Thompson worked continually on Jasper Park?

[Mike_Cirba]

In the immortal words of Matt Ward, "Puhhlleeeeasee!" 

There have been 84 IMO pieces written to date.

Exactly 2 of them have proved contentious, and the Merion IMO piece was simply a continuation and formalization of a long-standing discussion/debate/argument that had flared for years here with some new evidence thrown in to support the writer's viewpoint.   The fact that this piece was introduced with what was read by some as the explicit validation of the writer's unproven assertions by the founder of this website just provided a bit more kindling.

However, if anyone is using the excuse of the Merion debates as a reason not to publish an IMO piece of their own, it's a little like saying that I won't go to work today because there is a chance that an argument might ensue.     

It's time to burn that straw man to the ground, frankly.

The vast majority of IMO pieces here have had reactions ranging from wide acceptance and mass hosannahs to moderate and mild interest, but they have not exactly been a battlefield of raging emotions, by any stretch.    On the other hand, anyone putting forward ideas or assertions in a public forum should also accept that those ideas might be challenged, and sometimes strenously.


Happy Holidays, guys...   

[Joe Hancock]

Mike Cirba,

The other conclusion might be that if one submits an IMO piece, they shouldn't expect to be vilified as long as their contention isn't contradictory to what is generally accepted as truth.

Joe

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

I understand your point, but there WERE calls for more vetting of pieces, etc. based on the content of the Merion IMO piece.  Maybe no one wants to go through the vetting process or Ran doesn't want to!  But, you are also right that the discussion board is the meat of this site - in many cases, the IMO pieces aren't widely read or discussed.  That might also lead to some folks thinking "why bother."

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike Cirba,

The other conclusion might be that if one submits an IMO piece, they shouldn't expect to be vilified as long as their contention isn't contradictory to what is generally accepted as truth.

Joe

Joe,

I don't think they should expect to be vilified even if their contention IS contradictory to what is generally accepted as truth.    

The Merion IMO debate did get completely out of hand, and I'll also accept my part of the personal responsibility for that outcome but this whole idea of innocent victimization of the writer is not nearly the whole story to what transpired.  

And that's all I'll say about that.

[Jed Peters]

When is Jasper set to be renovated? I have plans to play the place this July, hope it's done by then?

Jed,

It was done right after Banff was built.

Sorry, which was when?

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike,

I understand your point, but there WERE calls for more vetting of pieces, etc. based on the content of the Merion IMO piece.  Maybe no one wants to go through the vetting process or Ran doesn't want to!  But, you are also right that the discussion board is the meat of this site - in many cases, the IMO pieces aren't widely read or discussed.  That might also lead to some folks thinking "why bother."

Jeff,

I also wish that a comprehensive counter to that IMO piece had been written and published here in a public forum, because I think it would have led to greater and more accurate understanding of events surrounding the origins of one of our greatest and most historically significant courses.

However, as we know, things sadly devolved to a point where that was/is no longer possible.  

[TEPaul]

JeffB:

It would seem most IMO pieces aren't read enough or if they are they aren't discussed enough on the DG. I think they should be and I wish they were. And by discussed I also mean challenged enough if those who read them feel challenging them is appropriate and supportable.

I do regret how contentioius the discussions and debates over a few of the IMO pieces may've gotten, certainly including "The Missing Faces of Merion" and to some extent Tom MacWood's "Arts and Crafts Golf", but in the first example both me and a number of others considered it to be really blatant historical revisionism. In the second example less so. If we feel that way I see no reason on earth why we shouldn't or can't say so on here.

I see the real problem with that contentiousness is that the authors not being willing or able to consider the errors of their analyses and almost automatically claiming our questioning of their pieces and the premises and points in them was not much more than a personal attack on them, or worse yet some on-going attempt on our part to stand in the way of historical truth so that we (and clubs) could continue to support some unsupportable icon or legend.

Merry Christmas to all, and certainly including the presently missing M&M boys; I think they should come back on here.

[Ian Andrew]

Ian, Isn't it true that Thompson worked continually on Jasper Park?

Adam,

Did he? I have the details for the first major renovation - do you have details about other trips beyond 1930?

[TEPaul]

Ian:

I can think of a number of subjects I'd like to see IMO pieces done on. I'll list some of them later. You, and others, might be surprised.

[Ian Andrew]

I think the issue that Sean brings up is pressure to meet a certain standard.

I took two years to write my piece because I was worried I would be taken to task on details where I didn't have concrete proof. I had a great deal to share but I feared the places where I was forced to provide my opinion. When I used to write my blog – I had my grammar corrected – I soon found out it was not the informal place that I wanted it to be.

Adam mentions Thompson returning to Jasper continuously. I know there is research I would have to do – but that caught me off guard – because I have not heard that from anyone. I think we all fear leaving an error up for all to find. This then means that we must research far beyond what we are willing to do when this was originally for fun.

That’s my take.

[Dan Herrmann]

If you want good reading in the "IMO" tradition, check out Ian's blog: thecaddyshack.blogspot.com

He stopped writing in August, but there's some really great stuff in there.

[Brad Kane]

Being from Calgary I for one would love to read the history on the Jasper!

[Sean_A]

In the immortal words of Matt Ward, "Puhhlleeeeasee!" 

There have been 84 IMO pieces written to date.

Exactly 2 of them have proved contentious, and the Merion IMO piece was simply a continuation and formalization of a long-standing discussion/debate/argument that had flared for years here with some new evidence thrown in to support the writer's viewpoint.   The fact that this piece was introduced with what was read by some as the explicit validation of the writer's unproven assertions by the founder of this website just provided a bit more kindling.

However, if anyone is using the excuse of the Merion debates as a reason not to publish an IMO piece of their own, it's a little like saying that I won't go to work today because there is a chance that an argument might ensue.     

It's time to burn that straw man to the ground, frankly.

The vast majority of IMO pieces here have had reactions ranging from wide acceptance and mass hosannahs to moderate and mild interest, but they have not exactly been a battlefield of raging emotions, by any stretch.    On the other hand, anyone putting forward ideas or assertions in a public forum should also accept that those ideas might be challenged, and sometimes strenously.


Happy Holidays, guys...   

Mike

Perhaps I am wrong or perhaps I am selfish.  Likely I am both, but I do know that getting rubbished for money is quite different than getting rubbished for a labour of love.  For all Tom P talk of misunderstandings concerning the personal aspect of these heated debates, I know what I read and I know things did get personal - there is no getting around this and no amount of carrying on in the name of the "truth" can rectify these wrongs.  Only heartfelt apologies and a change of behaviour will do.  Hopefully, we will all learn from the experience and be able to use the IMO section in a more fruitful way.  I am the first to admit that I don't give due props for these pieces though I do find myself going over Tommy Mac's pieces quite a bit - because he pushes the boat out and actually floats ideas which help place golf in a larger context.  Right or wrong isn't an issue, its the ideas, ensuing discussions and further ideas fostered which are important.  

Ciao

[TEPaul]

"I had a great deal to share but I feared the places where I was forced to provide my opinion."


Ian:

I don't think you should ever fear on here what you call those places you were forced to provide YOUR OPINION!

This place is all about OPINION, and the name of the section we're talking about is called IN MY OPINION! This DG is about our OPINIONS too but neither means our opinions shouldn't be questioned and challenged.

I think the worst thing that happened to this website, certainly this DG, is when a few on here tried to dismiss and even preclude OPINION by claiming that anything put on here had to be both supportable or even documentable FACT or it should not be mentioned at all. It was made even worse by those who demanded that of others since they weren't even close to doing it themselves.

This website is not a court of law and it is not supposed to have courtroom procedures (that are required by law) either!

I guess the key is, given this somewhat nonbenefical mentality we need to always keep distinguishing between what we believe to be fact (and provable) and what we feel is merely our opinion that is not provable.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Thanks for starting this topic.
There is a lot of good material and a platform to speak.

It would help to have the IMO page list the articles in a more readable format.
It is hard to scroll to the bottom of that list.
To the newcomer it looks like a blank page.

Make a big table of the articles - Ran & Ben.
Have them displayed attractively and see if the traffic changes...

Cheers

[Kalen Braley]

I think the In My Opinions are similar to doing the informal course reviews.  You have to do them because you like to do them, not necessarily because you expect to get 5 page threads.  They take a fair amount of effort as well.

As I've done approx 20 of these, I do them because I enjoy doing them.  And if they generate discussion on the board, thats fine, but if not thats not a problem either.

[Scott_Burroughs]

If you look through the IMO pieces, not all of them are opinion pieces, but simply presentations of some sort.  I mentioned an IMO piece I had been working on of this type (similar to the Westchester CC IMO piece) in a phone call some time ago, only to never get around to finishing it.  I later finally finished my My Home Course piece, only for it to be apparently not accepted (and I'm not the only one who has submitted one to never be published).  With that, I have no reason to bother finishing my IMO piece.

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