If you could change one Confidential Guide entry, which one?

[Jay Flemma]

This thread is meant in the spirit of collegiality.  I'm not calling for anyone to call out Doak.  Maybe a course had a renovation/restoration and improved.  Maybe a course took his comments to heart, made changes and needs a second look.  Maybe Tom lost a contact lens the day he played Goat Hills, who knows...but if Tom let you re-write one entry, which would it be?

One caveat though:  so this doesn't become a "homer" thread, you have to pick something that's NOT in your home state.  You can, however, pick a Doak 9 and say it should be a ten (rate a course higher than he did) or take a high Doak rating and say it might be lower in your estimation, as well.

I'll start:

Oklahoma City Golf and Country Club

Tom gave it a "Doak 4," but with wonderful rolling fairways, greens that sometimes slope side to side or front to back, a cunning routing that is out-and-back, and a few Raynor-esque features, the course is interesting, different to play from day to day, and well-preserved from the day Maxwell and Mackenzie turned it over to the members.  Tom saw it in either '81 or '83, I forget, but when I saw it in '07 I was floored.  I can't wait to play it again in a few days.  Tom rated it exactly the same as Dornick Hills, but even though I like Dornick, I think OCGCC is much better.

Chris Clouser wrote in his book that he thought every hole here was worthy of study.  While it was too dark for me to see 16-17-18 (and I ran around 11-15) I agree regarding the holes I saw.  I rate it at least a Doak 7, maybe 8.  I reserve the right to make a change to that number after the 2d of January.


Pix:









Guys, night fell on the eighth hole, so I'll have more pix after I return...

[Mark Pearce]

I'd take him back to Seaton Carew and have him play it this time.......

[Jeff Loh]

Westchester CC West and Tamarack in CT

[Jay Flemma]

Mark and Jeff, for those of us that left our guides at home, what were the doak numbers and do you have any pix?

[Bart Bradley]

Jay:

My home course, Grandfather Golf and CC, is mentioned only in the gossip section.  I would love to have Tom come and see it; but then again, I would also really enjoy an update of the book to include all the newer great courses that have been built since he wrote it.  To me, it is the single most important golf book ever written...too bad it is so dated.

Bart

[Sean_A]

"I have not seen the course as recently revised by Arthur Hills, a Michigan alum who has no business tampering with Mackenzie, but there wasn't much Mackenzie left anyway.  The combination of Mewcomb's tinkering, horrible tree-planting and the course's use as a parking lot for Michigan football games made the last version not worth seeing."  3

I can't think of another review which is so far off the mark.  Giving the course a 6 could be a bit miserly and there is a ton of Maxwell and Mac left.  For pete's sake, the routing is 100% pure.  To say there is little left is not even close to accurate.  Mind you, a MacHead could probably get this course into comfortable 7 range with a bunker overhaul and tree removal, but I am not sure Michigan has the bones to be any better than that. 

Ciao

[Jay Flemma]

Calling Chuck Brown.  Please pick up the maize and blue courtesy phone

I've been told that UMich is still a must play as well.

[J_ Crisham]

I would  like to have Beverly reevaluated by Doak since the massive reno work that was completed. The quality of the greens have improved as have the general turf after the extensive tree removal.  I think he gave it a 5 initially. I would place it a 7 in my book but then i am biased.
                                                                jack

[Jay Flemma]

For those of us away form our Hitchhiker's Guide...err...Confidential Guide, where's beverly?

Don't panic.

[Tom Naccarato]

Lundin Golf Club aka Lundin Links.

I think Tom himself wants to have a do-over with this one... It deserved a better rating then Tom gave it and I think during a research trip back, (for Old MacDonald) he realized there was a lot more bones there they imagined.

Jay, Why don't you tell us one you think should be changed?

[Joe Hancock]

Jay, Why don't you tell us one you think should be changed?

I'm guessing he might say "Oklahoma City Golf and Country Club"........

[Tom Naccarato]

I'm guessing he might say "Oklahoma City Golf and Country Club"........

Yes! Go Sooners! Go! Fight! Win! (or should I be saying Go Cowboys?)

[Matt_Cohn]

for OKC, I'd guess that tom would give holes 12-14 a 1 or 2, 16-18 a 3 and the rest of the course a 6 or 7. I really like OKC a lot, but those shoehorned holes 12-14 are an issue, and 16-18 are good if somewhat plain.

[Matt_Cohn]

I'm guessing he might say "Oklahoma City Golf and Country Club"........

Yes! Go Sooners! Go! Fight! Win! (or should I be saying Go Cowboys?)

no you shouldn't   

[J_ Crisham]

For those of us away form our Hitchhiker's Guide...err...Confidential Guide, where's beverly?

Don't panic.

Jay,  Beverly is in Chicago. 1908 Donald Ross design that was renovated a few years ago. Hosted the 1931 USAM that Ouimet won. Hosted the Western Opens  in the early 1960's won by Palmer and Nicklaus.
                                                       Jack

[Matt_Cohn]

For those of us away form our Hitchhiker's Guide...err...Confidential Guide, where's beverly?

Don't panic.

Jay,  Beverly is in Chicago. 1908 Donald Ross design that was renovated a few years ago. Hosted the 1931 USAM that Ouimet won. Hosted the Western Opens  in the early 1960's won by Palmer and Nicklaus.
                                                       Jack

also has a usga event in 2009. i forget which.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

For those of us away form our Hitchhiker's Guide...err...Confidential Guide, where's beverly?

Don't panic.

Jay,  Beverly is in Chicago. 1908 Donald Ross design that was renovated a few years ago. Hosted the 1931 USAM that Ouimet won. Hosted the Western Opens  in the early 1960's won by Palmer and Nicklaus.
                                                       Jack

also has a usga event in 2009. i forget which.

Sr Am

[Tom Naccarato]

I'm guessing he might say "Oklahoma City Golf and Country Club"........

Yes! Go Sooners! Go! Fight! Win! (or should I be saying Go Cowboys?)

no you shouldn't   

I didn't forget about that. I just had a momentary lapse of reason, plus I was hoping T-Boone Pickens was looking in..

[Jim Nugent]

for OKC, I'd guess that tom would give holes 12-14 a 1 or 2, 16-18 a 3 and the rest of the course a 6 or 7. I really like OKC a lot, but those shoehorned holes 12-14 are an issue, and 16-18 are good if somewhat plain.

If so, what would that make the overall course? 

[Scott Stambaugh]

A few from California (not my home state anymore.)  In my opinion, these courses would be rated higher today based on golf course improvements and advancements in conditioning-
 
Meadow Club- rated a 5, could be a 7 now.

Claremont CC- rated a 5, could be a 6 now. 

Cal Club- rated a 6, I have not played there since its reopening, but based on photos alone it looks to be more than a 6 now.

MPCC Dunes- rated a 6, could be a 7 now.

MPCC Shore- rated a 4 (the old course,) could be an 8 or possibly even a 9 now.   

Rancho Sante Fe GC- rated a 5, could be a 6 or possibly even a 7 now. 

[Jay Flemma]

Good call on MPCC, Scott.  I like th eholes with the Burn. Tom seemed to like the burn too in his entry.  He said had more twists than Barry Burn.

[brad_miller]

This is an a reply from Tom Doak of a prior thread related to Doak 9's that might now be 10's. It is Tom's take on the effort of restoration/renovation might make on a courses Doak rating. Clearly in Tom's opinion??? it might be possible to turn a 5 into a 6 with great work but I suspect he feels the bar is much higher in turning a 9 into a 10. I still respectfully submit such bar has been/is being reached at Prairie Dunes with the work being done over time by C&C, Axland and Stan George's team. Key to this is the 9 new mowed down chipping areas that make for much more optional play around the greens. By the way, I agree with Tom relative to SFGC, it is a 10 till the 14 hole, the finish lowers it to a 9.

Brad:

The idea that any "significant work" is going to turn a 9 into a 10 by my reckoning is misplaced -- or at least, I've never seen it happen.

To cite just one example, my own firm has done some very significant work at San Francisco Golf Club.  We've rebuilt all the bunkers and all the greens, added some length, and restored three lost Tillinghast holes.  And it was a 9 to begin with ... but there's no way it's a 10 now.

In truth, I probably rated it a 9 to begin with based on the underlying masterpiece and not the years of changes.  I tend to see through that kind of stuff thinking someday it will get fixed, which doesn't leave much room for a later upgrade.

[Chuck Brown]

Calling Chuck Brown.  Please pick up the maize and blue courtesy phone

I've been told that UMich is still a must play as well.

I missed my cue, Jay.  Sorry.
In Tom's defense, the UMGC has undergone a revelatory facelift since his CG was published.  I guess what I would say about it is that yes, there is an awful lot of Mackenzie and Maxwell there, and given the depth of Tom's appreciation for the two of them, I'd bet he has a better appreciation of those  features than I do.  Yes, there is no doubt that since the renovation (costing several times what the original land purchase and construction cost, and that without much touching the original greens), Tom would agree to mark it several notches higher, but based on a course that is different from what he originally rated.   I'd be curious to hear what else he might do to it now, post-Art Hills.
The simple fact of two Mackenzie/Maxwell courses in our state is cool enough that it would be nice to have someone like Tom, with such a deep appreciation of Crystal Downs, look at the UMGC.  I'm quite certain that in the 1940's and '50's, when the USGA selected UMGC as the site of the first USGA Junior (runner-up was a teenage Ken Venturi), Michigan was the noteworthy course and Crystal Downs was the unknown...
See what you've done, Tom Doak?

[Mark Bourgeois]

How come no one on here thinks Doak overscored any courses?  Are all these courses located in Lake Wobegon?

[Charlie Goerges]

How come no one on here thinks Doak overscored any courses?  Are all these courses located in Lake Wobegon?

Hey! It's only the children that are above average.