[JESII]

How realistic is it for an approach shot to be more difficult from 30 - 50 yards closer to the green?

The question occured to me on MWP's post on the Tom Doak Interview thread-

I want the question to be framed in the context of a single player...in other words, what about the green would/could make it reasonable for me (or you, or better yet Tiger) to intentionally lay back from my full driver distance off the tee or on a lay up?



At the same time, consider two closely matched players with one holding a significant length advantage and the other a significant accuracy and ball control advantage...how do we reward the accuracy and control players skills?

[TEPaul]

"At the same time, consider two closely matched players with one holding a significant length advantage and the other a significant accuracy and ball control advantage...how do we reward the accuracy and control players skills?"


Are you asking how it can be done architecturally or are you asking if it is realistic or appropriate to do? Or perhaps both?

[Phil Benedict]

Other than the awkward, less-than-full shots, I don't know how being 30-50 yards closer to the green can be more difficult.

[Tom Birkert]

Interesting question Jim.

Consider the 10th at Shinnecock. I would say that it's far easier to have the longer approach shot from the top of the hill than to get half way down that slope and have a wedge off a downhill, sidehill lie to a green that is above you.

If the green is small and requires a high spinning shot then it's better to have a full shot in than a half wedge.

The 10th at Riviera is also a good example. You won't see all the pros going for the green due to the severe internal contours of the green. Even when green high getting up and down is very tricky, even for guys that good. Many will lay up to their wedge distance.

[Kalen Braley]

The 18th at Olympic seems to have some of these attributes.  The closer you are to the green, the more uphill the approach shot is from a more severe downhill lie.

[Adam Clayman]

The 12th at Pacific Grove is such a greensite. It's false front is the aspect that makes it tougher from 30-50 than from 100 or more.

I doubt it's just the false front either, rather the way it works with the other contours, both within and around the green.

[JESII]

Tom Paul,

I am asking about presentation, not whether or not we'll piss anybody off.


Phil,

Would you agree that a pin on the right corner of a green sloping hard right to left will reward the guy in the left edge of the fairway over the guy in the right edge even if the guy in the right edge is 30 -50 yards closer, but outside of half shot yardage?


Tom Birkert,

Yes.

How about #5 at Shinnecock...What would make you lay back and left as opposed to hitting it up near the right front bunker...assuming you could not reach the green, but could carry the big short bunker?

[Phil Benedict]

Phil,

Would you agree that a pin on the right corner of a green sloping hard right to left will reward the guy in the left edge of the fairway over the guy in the right edge even if the guy in the right edge is 30 -50 yards closer, but outside of half shot yardage?

Jim,

Sure, but you've introduced another dimension.  Why did the long driver go right?  Missed his target or because there was a hazard to the left that he needed to avoid that didn't come into play for the shorter hitter?

[Tom Birkert]

Jim,

It would depend on a few things for me, namely how I was playing. I'm more confident with a full shot in, as I think a lot of handicap golfers are. It's different for pros, obviously.

Certainly I think being in the correct side of the fairway can make a huge difference. Being able to play away from any trouble is a big advantage, as is getting a good look down the whole green. Personally I'd rather have a 130 yard shot than a 100 yard shot if I am approaching the green from an optimal angle.

There are a couple of further examples at Sunningdale. The 7th, where the tee shot to leave you 170 is a lot wider than leaving yourself 140 when you risk being blocked out by trees.

The 11th has a tiny, raised green and many people prefer to have a 100 yard wedge in than a 50 yard pitch or chip and run (although weirdly enough on this hole I prefer the chip from 50 yards).

Finally the approach shot to 18th plays longer from the left hand side of the fairway, however it affords you the better approach angle and means no trouble if you come up short or long. If you're on the right hand side of the fairway you are playing across the angle of the green so have a smaller area to land your shot, plus you have bunkers front and back.

It's strategic elements like this which make golf such a great game, particularly if you're playing matchplay...

[JESII]

Why did the long driver go right?  Missed his target or because there was a hazard to the left that he needed to avoid that didn't come into play for the shorter hitter?

The long driver missed the idea spot because that's what he does...the short hitter hit it because that's what he does...or she.

[Will Haskett]

I am a younger guy (27) and come from the grip-it-and-rip-it golf school most people my age and younger have been taught in. Patience and course management have only become a part of my game after I stopped playing competitively, unfortunately. I have always had the luxury of big, forgiving drivers, and all sorts of wedge options.

I will gladly take 40 yards out over 100 yards any day of the week, even if there is water short or some sort of issue like the lie. (Of course, there are exceptions. If the landing area 40 yards short is filled with contours or very tight, you don't take the risk. But I am thinking strictly about fairway)

Why? I don't like my iron game at all, and a whole lot more can go wrong from 100 yards away than 40 yards away. Now, I'll admit, I don't hit a lot of skinny or chili-dipped wedges to put doubt in my mind either. But I am just as likely to chunk a wedge from 100 yards as I am a half-wedge from 50. And if I do the former, I have to hit the latter again.

There are certainly areas where having a full swing makes it a bit easier, but I'll get it as close as possible and figure it out when I get there.

[Phil Benedict]

Jim,

So the short hitter ends up in the preferred side of the fairway because he is accurate whereas the long hitter is on the wrong side because he's not, at least not with his driver.

Now being 30-50 yards further away from the target but on the wrong side of the fairway is probably worse, so the long hitter better be more accurate with his layup club, if he chooses that option.  

I subscribe to Pelz's analysis of individual shot patterns, which is that dispersion is a (constant) linear function of distance for all players.   (Lee Trevino is the most accurate player Pelz ever analyzed.)  The long hitter is just as likely to hit his two-iron or hybrid off line as his driver, but it will end up closer to his target, and might leave a marginally better angle than if he used his driver.

[Tom Huckaby]

I am a younger guy (27) and come from the grip-it-and-rip-it golf school most people my age and younger have been taught in. Patience and course management have only become a part of my game after I stopped playing competitively, unfortunately. I have always had the luxury of big, forgiving drivers, and all sorts of wedge options.

I will gladly take 40 yards out over 100 yards any day of the week, even if there is water short or some sort of issue like the lie. (Of course, there are exceptions. If the landing area 40 yards short is filled with contours or very tight, you don't take the risk. But I am thinking strictly about fairway)

Why? I don't like my iron game at all, and a whole lot more can go wrong from 100 yards away than 40 yards away. Now, I'll admit, I don't hit a lot of skinny or chili-dipped wedges to put doubt in my mind either. But I am just as likely to chunk a wedge from 100 yards as I am a half-wedge from 50. And if I do the former, I have to hit the latter again.

There are certainly areas where having a full swing makes it a bit easier, but I'll get it as close as possible and figure it out when I get there.

Will:

I am an older guy (45) and I play EXACTLY the same as you do.  In fact it's scary what you just wrote - that too is me all over.

So it takes a LOT for me to lay up to 100.  I think you and I are the poster-children for this thread.

Can you think of any holes where you'd do this, outside of the obvious situations you mentioned (water, bad lie possible, contours, etc.)?

I can't.  And I've played the courses mentioned already.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jim,
I like the idea of turning what might be called 'normal' risk/reward on its head. If it's done right it could add options to how a hole is played.

Pin locations on smartly sloped and angled greens could suggest to the longer hitter that he play 'safe' one day and accept a longer approach that has little danger. Another day the location might be such that he decides to take the 'riskier' tee shot (say cutting a corner) leaving a shorter approach, but one that must carry another hazard, be it sand, grassy swale, steep shoulder, etc..

After all, the really long player has already been rewarded, hasn't he (or she) ?      

[JMEvensky]

Wouldn't a green sloped front to back make the 30-40 yard pitch difficult enough to consider laying back to hit something harder with more spin?

[Kalen Braley]

Tom and Will....

Your unapologetic "grip it and rip it" mentality is easy to fix.  100 yard long ponds in front of every green.  Think Bay Hill 18...   

[Tom Huckaby]

Wouldn't a green sloped front to back make the 30-40 yard pitch difficult enough to consider laying back to hit something harder with more spin?

That's another example - even I might consider that. Good call.

Kalen - well, grip it and rip it isn't really my way... NOT being any better from 100 than 50 is more what I was talking about.

 

[Will Haskett]

I am a younger guy (27) and come from the grip-it-and-rip-it golf school most people my age and younger have been taught in. Patience and course management have only become a part of my game after I stopped playing competitively, unfortunately. I have always had the luxury of big, forgiving drivers, and all sorts of wedge options.

I will gladly take 40 yards out over 100 yards any day of the week, even if there is water short or some sort of issue like the lie. (Of course, there are exceptions. If the landing area 40 yards short is filled with contours or very tight, you don't take the risk. But I am thinking strictly about fairway)

Why? I don't like my iron game at all, and a whole lot more can go wrong from 100 yards away than 40 yards away. Now, I'll admit, I don't hit a lot of skinny or chili-dipped wedges to put doubt in my mind either. But I am just as likely to chunk a wedge from 100 yards as I am a half-wedge from 50. And if I do the former, I have to hit the latter again.

There are certainly areas where having a full swing makes it a bit easier, but I'll get it as close as possible and figure it out when I get there.

Will:

I am an older guy (45) and I play EXACTLY the same as you do.  In fact it's scary what you just wrote - that too is me all over.

So it takes a LOT for me to lay up to 100.  I think you and I are the poster-children for this thread.

Can you think of any holes where you'd do this, outside of the obvious situations you mentioned (water, bad lie possible, contours, etc.)?

I can't.  And I've played the courses mentioned already.

Certainly there are situations where the short layup is not advisable. I can think of many holes I played where the green sits well below and you don't want a downhill lie, so you position back a little farther to a flatter spot. Honestly, of all of the lies, downhill is the only one that really scares me with a half-wedge shot. uphill makes is a bit easier and sidehills are adjustable no matter the swing.

I can't think of a good example to make my point that I have played and people would know. Hypothetically, here is one: #13 at Augusta (I feel like I know it from having watched it)... Probably not going to take a crack at that green in 2 unless I am feeling really good. But, if I was to layup, I would knock it as far down the right-hand side of that fairway and leave a little flip over the creek to that green, not hold back for a 100-yard wedge. Either way, you are trying to hit into a little area, and I feel just as good standing closer to the green.

[Will Haskett]

Wouldn't a green sloped front to back make the 30-40 yard pitch difficult enough to consider laying back to hit something harder with more spin?

Excellent scenario. Yes, that would certainly factor into it. But with new wedges and the balls these days, spinning (and controlling) a 40-yard shot isn't as hard as it used to be.

As I was posting, I thought of several examples at a little country club in Indianapolis (HillCrest - Bill Diddle design) where I group up working. It's a course full of tiny greens that are super fast. There are 3 different par 4s that I have played a multitude of ways (laying back and being aggressive). You want to play conservative, but over the years I hit so many different shots, that the aggressive mentality stuck with me because I knew you had options to succeed. I can't say for sure that one way or the other is the right call, but certain designs can influence your decision.

[Tom Huckaby]

Will:  BINGO.  We remain 100% alike on this.  I'd do just the same at Augusta.

Re avoiding downhill shots, that fell under "bad lie possible" for me.  But good call.

I do think a green sloping away would get me to think about it, as per the prior post.  Then again I don't exactly achieve a lot of spin from 100 so I may shine that on also....

TH

[Jim_Kennedy]

Well then, will you two wedge-playing superstars (  ) tell me why no one ever plays the 13th like you guys say you would?

[JMEvensky]

Since I'm playing a hot hand,why aren't front-to-back sloped greens more prevalent?Granted,I haven't seen as many golf courses as some,but I don't remember playing but a handful.

Are they more difficult to build/maintain?

[Tom Huckaby]

Well then, will you two wedge-playing superstars (  ) tell me why no one ever plays the 13th like you guys say you would?

Jim - you couldn't have possibly missed our point more clearly.

I guess I ought not to speak for Will, but at least my reason is not that I am good with wedges, but rather that I SUCK.

Good players will lay up to a full swing distance.  They are generally better from there.

Me?  Will said it perfectly.  I am just as likely to chunk a wedge from 100 yards as I am a half-wedge from 50. And if I do the former, I have to hit the latter again.


TH

[Will Haskett]

Well then, will you two wedge-playing superstars (  ) tell me why no one ever plays the 13th like you guys say you would?

I wish I could say I had the consistency of the pros when it came to the wedge shots. They know exactly how far a full wedge will go, while there is more of a guessing game with the middle-distance shots. For me, I think the lack of consistency is about equal in both distances, alas.

[Tom Huckaby]

Well then, will you two wedge-playing superstars (  ) tell me why no one ever plays the 13th like you guys say you would?

I wish I could say I had the consistency of the pros when it came to the wedge shots. They know exactly how far a full wedge will go, while there is more of a guessing game with the middle-distance shots. For me, I think the lack of consistency is about equal in both distances, alas.

And there you have it.
 

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