[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
They're located in western Washington state and they call them Mima mounds. How they came to be is not exactly known, but theories range from aliens to seismic activity.
At other end of the state, longitudinally speaking, you can find these 'mounds'.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff - thanks very much for an excellent and expansive post. It was very interesting to read your views/ideas and about how they have and haven't changed over time -- and many of the reasons you cite for using mounds I'd never considered before (and, now that I do consider them, make sense). 

One of the many things that struck me, though, was how you note that "most styles solve some problems and create others."  And I think this is where the use of mounds is sometimes problematic, i.e. they seem to me to 'solve' problems that never existed in the first place. 

For example, on a course I played before the snows came, a site that naturally sloped ended up with flattened-out fairways and mounds on either side.  What problem did that solve? What would've been the 'problem' with a mishit drive sliding down the slope of a fairwary and leaving a more difficult (or less desirable) angle of approach to the green?  Especially since the 'solution' was no great bonus: yes, the mounds helped contain my mishit drives, but the recovery shots from those mounds weren't very easy at all, i.e. it wasn't about a less desirable angle of approach to the green, it was now about trying to get a decent stance on a quite severely uphill or downhill or sidehill mound-lie.

Just one example on one course, so I don't want to make a rule of thumb out of that, but just thought I'd mention it.

Thanks again
Peter  

Peter,

Just checking in to see if any posts have been made on my thread and I noticed I didn't really answer your questions.  I did mention seeing average players trying to play off sidehill mounds in another response, and I agree with you that it creates a problem.

I think its because all the mounding was really a visual driven thing in the 80's - and part of the signature hole, design for best new, etc. trend.  Mounding/earthmoving does give something to look at on a flat site and is cheaper and more instantly effective than planting a million small trees! Thinking about your post, I know I didn't consider the playability aspects until seeing them with my own eyes, and I will guess that few gca's did.  Could JN, as a great player, really have liked to play off cone shaped mounds (or as other golfers complain) steep shelves between two fw, even if they did create shadow patterns?  Those are just 2 examples.

I really have no problem with flattening a fw enough that a ball won't roll into the rough.  Most golfers get frustrated when they hit the high side of the fw and then see the ball roll off the low side.  And, theoretically, if there is no advantage to placing the ball somewhere, and all balls end up in the same spot no matter where they are hit, there really is no reward, no stragegy.

I think the problem of flat fw and hilly rough comes from plan based designers (with me being an example again) who draw the fw line first.  Its just too tempting and natural to use that line as a grading demarcation between flat fw and hilly rough.   My mentors always stressed that the grading should be done on a separate sheet of paper and we always did one final run with the fw lines, green edges, etc. removed just to focus on flowing contours.  Still, we "knew" where the demarcation was and it could only mask the line so much.

Again, Fazio does a great job by grading the entire corridor as a valley and ignoring the grass lines in his grading.   He also does a great job of building earth forms that are massive, and can be viewed by most as natural rather than "plopped" on the landscape as an extra.  If you look at the ridges and splines that cross his fairways, they always occur at different angles, and cross different distances from barely at all, to half to all the way across.  One thing he rarely does is the random look, like Pac Dunes, where TD builds small mounds/ridges on other mounds ridges to get the rumpled look.

Jim Kennedy,

I love the last photo.  I have often wondered if scaling down a topo map of contours like that would result in a natural looking fw......

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim Kennedy,

Thanks...they are pretty wild, but if you look at the flattish nearby terrain it's pretty reasonable to assume they were either man or alien made. 

But, if they are natural, I think they should be used on golf courses just as often as they appear in nature. 

On the other hand, those irregular swirls, mounds, dips, and hollows on your latest pic are some very cool stuff, and reminds me of parts of glacial upstate NY.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jeff,
These mounds would probably raise a hackle or two.....


....but you could stick a flag in the ground here, and hear 'well done'...


.....and yes, I think you could scale down a topo like this and make it work as a fairway...

..... although I think it would need to remain on a treeless plain, mowed close from 1 through 18. 

Mike,
It does have some resemblance to glacial upstate NY, although I bet the weather's better in eastern Washington

[Tom Naccarato]

There is nothing wrong with an occasional mound(s) thrown into the mix to add some interest--more, a feature which to build some strategy off of. I guess having any sort of discussion or conversation on the subject is tough because the first thing I think of is containment in the modern legalistic sense of the word. there are just so many architects today that use it from this perspective; the next thing you know they are living by it.

There are other architects that avoid it like the plague.

One of the biggest problems for me--and design wise--out of necessity--because that was the missive; to build for spectators, but in the same sense build to maximize for home lots, was PGA West's Stadium Course. when comparing it to the TPC at Sawgrass, which it was supposed to be it's direct cousin, where the home lots weren't a question and plenty of necessary width for strategic play was there for as much swamp as you wanted to claim--these two are far different courses (I would surmise because I haven't seen the TPC) But with PEte Dye's work, lots of mounds all over the place which could surely be construed for strategy, somehow, at PGA West the containment became gussied-up seating, but more, a buffer between golf holes on what was a very constricted property.

The one saving feature to this--if your looking at it as a negative--is that Pete at least made it look passable; but in some cases it just doesn't work--especially with the homes on the outside perimeters.

But lets look at another course--another style; one which I more or less have made a mission to destroy any credibility. This would be  Sandpines--Golf On The Oregon Dunes.

Rees did one thing right there, and that was cover up that unnatural and manufactured, seemingly store-bought orb shaped mounding with as much native looking rough as he could possibly plant. Sandpines was a losing proposition from the start. Seemingly designed on a drawing board in Montclair without any true feel for a site 3000 +/- miles away, it shows. There wasn't a lot of heart or thought that went into Sandpines which tripled the problems when it came to building the place, and you can blame mounding as part of that problem. I'm sure a lot of hole containment was a necessity just to get the place built while not being blown away during the middle of the night, but ultimately it is the mounds themselves which earned him the criticism--the main criticism. Those were the mounds on the golf holes where it was most prevalent that the hand of man was at work. It was all done in very bad taste. Never mind that fact that the course was devoid of any thoughtful strategy a site like that contained. Better work has been achieved on flat pieces of property.

Rees entire career has been marred by those mounds, those "Rees Pieces." He doesn't use them as much anymore--thus proving the man does have a heart--or at least realizes that criticism can be constructive in terms of making himself a better golf architect. And don't get me wrong, Rees can claim a lot of success by looking at his portfolio of courses built. But a lot of that is based off of salesmanship, no different then one can be treated when buying a Lady Kenmore at Sears.

Harsh? Probably, but honestly, I think the best thing Rees Jones could do for his career is to go and redesign Sandpines in the most natural way that the site deserved. He should study the Oregon Dunes, their history and the natural aspects of what made that area so special. He should taste the flavor of other courses nearby, and learn from them--and then rebuild it. Do it for free--which in turn would make it that much more remarkable--"an architect that felt that he made a mistake and wanted to correct it?!?!?" Unheard of!

But then again, maybe its just me vilifying him. Strategies so bold that they hit you in the face..........

[Tom Naccarato]

Jim Kennedy,
For what its worth, last year, I spent some time in Eastern Washington and the land there is screaming Golf. I've seen it both from the air and on the ground. Some of it is sublime as Westchester County, New York--without the houses and development. Other areas as bold as the pictures you have posted.

[Kalen Braley]

Jim Kennedy,
For what its worth, last year, I spent some time in Eastern Washington and the land there is screaming Golf. I've seen it both from the air and on the ground. Some of it is sublime as Westchester County, New York--without the houses and development. Other areas as bold as the pictures you have posted.

Tom,

I can't agree more with you on this one.  I lived in the Spokane area for over 5-6 years and there are great land formations everywhere thanks to the ancient glacial floods.  I used to love going for drives out of town where its mile after mile of open farm land and try to envision holes on the terrain.

Jim,

Thats a great pic and so typical of what you will see on the eastern side of the state as well.  I wouldn't be surprised if some type of glacial flooding had something to do with those mounds as well.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tom,
One word keeps popping up in my head as I look at photos of the Palouse: Wanderlust.

You'd need a tractor trailer full of stakes and a year of Sundays to cover this place.    

[Tom Naccarato]

Guys,
The land that sits west of Airway Heights, which is the road in from Seattle, is spectacular at best. In fact, from the road it looks like there is golf courses on it. There is a lot of granite outcroppings, but there is a lot of decomposed granite to it also--and I can't help to think that it couldn't be good grass growing fertile soil that is both easy to drain; easy to find some amount of natural hazards which I think is important.

I wish I had some pictures of it.

Kalen, When I was out there, it would be for like three days at a time, and I stayed at this place that was right down the street from that H. Chandler Egan course, (Indian Hill or is it Indian Creek?) and unfortunately had so much work to do on the race car each of those times, I didn't get a chance to go play it, let alone go out and take a look at it.

That is a crime which I should be convicted of--not going and seeing a great classic public course like that.

[Kalen Braley]

Tommy,

That is a crime, Indian Canyon is a great little course and an exceptional value at under $30 to play.  It could likely use a little bunker restoration, but outside of that is good to go.  I can think of few courses with more diabolical greens than that one.

As good as that land is out west of Spokane, its even better when you go south and north of there.  I saw many epic pieces of property out there including one on the drive if going up to Mt. Spokane.  The possibilites in that entire area are endless, and as of a few years ago, the land still very affordable.

[Jim_Kennedy]

It looks like John Harbottle has had a crack in Palouse, this one for WSU





Beyond that there doesn't appear to be much in the area, at least nothing using them thar hills.
The only other project in the area (so far as I can find) is going to be west of Walla Walla, and it will be surrounded by homes. Gag

[Peter Pallotta]

Jeff - thanks. I just checked in to the thread again and saw your response. I appreciate it. It's interesting how a conception of the "average player" influences architectural decisions. In my neck of the woods I don't remember ever playing a golf course with canted/sloped fairways where if I hit the high side the ball would roll down into the rough on the low side -- i.e. the courses I tend to play are simply not maintained in a way that would allow that to happen. But plus, that possibility is something I can happily live with -- I enjoy trying to draw or fade a ball into the slope, even if I'm rarely succesful, whereas I don't much enjoy playing off mounds, no matter how well I execute the shot (or not, more offten). Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the canted/sloped fairway seems 'natural' whereas the mounds seem to have been put there by the architect (please note my quotes around natural). Anyway, just the experience/views of one average golfer, which I guess goes to show that -- like the average family with 2.5 children -- the 'average' doesn't really exist.

Thanks again - all the best to you and yours for a peaceful and happy holiday season.

Peter

[Tom Naccarato]

Jim,
John Harbottle sent me those images and I should have posted them, but I didn't think of it!

The site looks to be pretty cool. Flying out of Spokane, my face is usually glued to the window each time I've been up there. Its a great place, and I even have relatives up there that I see about once every 25 years! (and usually down here!) So, with my friend who just took over the drag strip/race track; as well as family, I should have little excuse in going to see this--unless we are in fact on the eve of the Next Great Depression, where money will be even more scarce!

[Adam Clayman]

When I toured Belvedere CC in Michigan this summer, I was struck by the green site of the 16th hole.(#?) It had mounds galore, most were similar to the typical modern vilified version. My first reaction was favorable because the look was cool with the benched green. As I got closer and closer I wondered why these mounds elicited that reaction from me, when 9 out of ten times I would consider them eyesores.
 The answer was... these mounds were only used in this fashion on that course once. If they had been a re-occurring motiff, I'd have been less enamored.

Can anyone tell us why the 8th green at Augusta works so well?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tommy,

I like the first pp of your post No. 29.  There is nothing wrong with the occaisional mound, well conceived and built.

I think my point on posting this thread was that I believe that the mound based, 1990's courses will be better judged in some future point of history.  Right now, we are so tired of mounding and that style, that it may obscure the other features of the course, which could be strong.  There will be, IMHO, even be a push to restore some of these courses as examples of the style and that style will be regarded more highly than it is now.  I don't know where in the style rankings it will land, but it will be appreciated for what it was - an attempt to take architecture in a different direction.

And, I think moving forward, that the over use of mounds will be reduced.  But they have become part of the design landscape, and future mounds will be judged on what they do for a hole (not an entire course) because they should be used where other features won't provide the same results, but not everywhere, simply as a visual "treat."

[Tom Naccarato]

Jeff,
My mound problems usually pertain to containment, which in my honest opinion ruin golf. There are holes with natural containment that do work. (go to the file that says Astoria Golf & CC; Rustic Canyon #16, Annandale #14 etc. All natural containment that does work)

When it is mad-made, much like the way you've ACCURATELY described Fazio's work, I tend to think that this is where the less then complimentary work begins. Its easy to move mountains and create what you want to, and I'll probably get into more further trouble with Mr. Kubly for saying so!  (He didn't have to create it at Annandale though. It was already there!)  Where the over-building/over-design; the control of making the golfers go here and not there--that to me flies into the face of the truest aspects of the Sport.

But lets take a mound into account--a really good mound that doesn't exist anymore. This would be the Mae West mound at Bel Air for example. That mound dictated play and was in fact man-made; was artificially created, but it worked with another bold natural feature to create a really interesting golf hole; an interesting shot and strategy--not to mention an "urban-legendary" name for a golf hole. But you don't see a lot of modern architects using that kind of stuff for strategy which to play from. They want to more use it for containment and containment only; or to block unwanted irritants out of view--say a trailer park or single-story, high-rise cardboard house with a bunch of old broken down Ford's pitted outside in upper slopes of Hemet. (which no doubt Mr. Kulby can attest to those problems! It would have taken more then a mound; more like Mount Everest to cover that mess up, and I wouldn't have blamed him!)

[Mike_Young]

I know this will probably get me in trouble, but what do people think of some of Raynors’ mounding on flat ground? I have always felt it was unnatural, but wondered whether it got a free pass because he mostly only used it in the direct line of play.

Andrew,
Raynor was unnatural.....but because he did not mix it with natural ...I like it.....

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

Indian Canyon is a fun course - my last time there was during the '84 US Public Links. The issue is Indian Canyon does need a bit of major tweaking in order to resurrect so much of what Chandler Egan did there. The bones are there - a bit more flesh would be a real plus. The 18th played as a par-4 - as it was in the '84 event -- makes for a real demanding closer.

Speaking of Washington State -- I thoroughly enjoyed Palouse Ridge by Harbottle. Some may pan the course because of the disparity between the front and back nines. Harbottle gets little attention on this site save for the few who have played a number of his designs.

[Tom Naccarato]

I know this will probably get me in trouble, but what do people think of some of Raynors’ mounding on flat ground? I have always felt it was unnatural, but wondered whether it got a free pass because he mostly only used it in the direct line of play.

Andrew,
Raynor was unnatural.....but because he did not mix it with natural ...I like it.....

Mike,
How ya'll doin'?

Could you please give me an example of Raynor "mounding" which you speak. I can understand what you are saying about Raynor shaping, but he seemed to know how to make the ball bounce and roll and how to make that shaping at-the-green work, as well as hazards and features in the fairway. But please point me to an example of Raynor mounding which to learn from.

[Mike_Young]

Tommy,
I think Camargo had several examples...I dont recall which holes.....also I see so many examples of where he builds bunkers above grade and that equates to the same thing to me.....Again...I still like his stuff....

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tommy,

Funny thing about containment. When fw are wide enough, it isn't needed.  Once narrower fw became accepted, they apparently were too narrow to hold a decent tee shot, so then we added mounds back in.....also funny is that fw narrowed because of two row irrigation, but with mounds now in the rough, two more rows had to be added back.

Short version is that if a playing corridor is 70-80 yards wide containment really isn't necessary and the design is sort of counterproductive, although as explained, sometimes the way containment came about was through evolution.

While I have copied the Mae West concept, I consider it sort of a conversation piece and not really great design.  I am just not sure what the mounded green entry did for Thomas other than look kinda cool and get school boy snickers from those who got the joke.  What do you think they really do?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Kalen,
Thought you might enjoy these pic :



Wenatchi man named George Nanamkin golfing, Indian Canyon Golf Course, Spokane, Washington, April 26, 1936



and here he is shooting at golf balls w/bow and arrow- cool[/img]
 

[Tom Naccarato]

Mike,
 I hope ya'll doin' great to night. Wish Kris a Happy Christmas for me and a Merry New Year... I'll check out Camargo.

Jeff,
Please tell me your calling for a return to one grass-one cut throughout the course (other then greens) That would be great!

How I think it works? Rather strategically actually. Its all about placement of the shot to get by the mound and a better entry into the green. Of course this works too with a very interesting green and its internal contours. I could take some time and show you, but I'm with this group of people known as family and I've snuck into the other room to post  But its all rather elementary dear Brauer!

Happy Xmas to you to!

Jim, Great shots! Where did you get those? I also came across some from the LA Times that are similar--or maybe its the 1994 Plump Jack Syrah that I'm not supposed to be drinking?!?!?!

[Kalen Braley]

Jim,

Very cool pics.  That 2nd pic is in the 10th fairway.  Very cool to see the rock wall without all the  trees and vegetation that have taken it over.

[Norbert P]

 
 Here is some land action at Barnbougle - looking into the sun on the 8th(?) fairway.



Barnbougle Dunes, Tasmania

I really don't like to call this mounding - perhaps rumpling is a better word, but if it's going to be done, integrate them into the fairways, not in some vulgar fashion of containment.
It all comes back to honesty.

"The secret of life is honesty. If you can fake that, you've got it made."   George Burns

Jim K, great photos of the Palouse country. It truly is an imagineers paradise.



"It's not a mound! It's a knoll! I don't do mounds."   (A usual response after somebody says "Nice mound".)

(Thanks  Russ ! Merry Christmas to you and M and all.)

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