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Andy Troeger

Re: Define "playability" part II
« Reply #75 on: December 23, 2008, 09:23:40 AM »
Its very difficult to design a course that's interesting for really good players but also playable for a higher handicap who hits it 40 yards offline sometimes. I don't want to go to the point of saying higher handicaps should play different courses, but, if playability is a particular golfer's ultimate priority and concern then they probably will not like some of what are considered the world's top courses.

Take Ballyneal and Prairie Dunes. Both are wonderful golf courses, but Ballyneal certainly has more playability for the average golfer and less difficulty for the scratch golfer when compared to Prairie Dunes. The fairways are significantly wider and the native areas are significantly less penal. There's room to play at Prairie Dunes, but a really poor shot is likely gone, and there's challenge at Ballyneal especially since the wind usually blows, but without wind a good player would likely have the opportunity to shoot a pretty good number.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Define "playability" part II
« Reply #76 on: December 23, 2008, 10:55:38 AM »
Well, Matt, I don't know about you, but I learned something important on this thread.

In spite of your constant claim that you play with all levels of golfers and observe them, you make a statement like this:

George:

I concede if you have someone who is a 20-30 and likely hits as many ground balls as he does in getting the ball airborne than it would behoove such a person to play a course with 100-yard wide fairways, bunkers that are at best cosmetic and greens which are devoid of any real contours.

Likely everyone on here has spent at least a brief time as a 20s handicapper, and each knows full well that when you're shooting in the 90s, you are not hitting as many ground balls as airborne shots. The difference between the 70s and the 90s is about a stroke a hole - a 3 putt instead of a 2, a missed GIR instead of a GIR, a chip to 12 feet instead of 3 feet. It's not hitting as many grounders as airborne balls.

So I've learned that you have no concept of how someone in the 20-30 handicap range plays golf, thanks for that.

No doubt your interpretation is yours -- an opinion.

...Under your strict definition, these too would be courses you would avoid. So be it -- for you.

You are finally getting to the crux of my opinion and my thoughts on playability for all levels of golfers. Andy articulated quite well the distinction that I am trying to make in his most recent post. I am not saying there is anything at all wrong with a course not meeting my definition of playable for all levels, or even anything lacking, other than to me personally and folks who play like I do, and folks who share my preferences (the difference between a preference and a bias is that I fully recognize my preferences, while those biased - someone like you, for instance - fail to recognize their own biases).

-----

Another excellent post, Sean.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Matt_Ward

Re: Define "playability" part II
« Reply #77 on: December 23, 2008, 12:04:29 PM »
George:

You have a bias against desert golf. By all means continue with the "preference" angle / spin as long as you wish but spare me the verbal word games. I pointed out how a solitary play on Black Mesa didn't really show you how your definition of playability doesn't apply to that course. Recovery shots are possible to be played there.

If someone hits it 40-50 yards off line there are holes at Black Mesa where recoverying is possible -- in a number of other instances that would not be doable. Guess what? The same can be said for Bethpage Black, or Winged Foot / West or Oakmont or Pine Valley, Dunluce / Portrush, shall I go on?

Desert golf is not just one broad category where everything is then deemed to be the same. Those courses in the greater Scottsdale area do in fact offer limited options and are more prone to the "either or" style you speak about.

My statement that you referenced initially with your last post -- is for those select whiners who bark about playability being lacking -- is that often times architects will make such holes / courses appear harder than they are. This can impact all types of players because of the "psyche out" elements deployed. Players can either accept their own limitations - which many do -- or fall back by displacing blame to the hole / course in question, rather than look inward at themselves.

Here's another false statement -- I never said people of high handicaps were hitting as MANY ground balls as those in the air. They just do hit such shots from time to time. It's not as infrequent as you may think.

My "concept" of how differing types of people play is there George. I regularly play with people whose handicaps vary from low single digit to those close to 30. Those who are 20-30 handicap types -- and who play 4-5 times per year or in that ballpark can play to far different styles and manners. Some will hit no ground balls -- some will hit more. Some will spray a good bit -- others less so. Some are strong but have no touch -- others are weak in terms of distance but able to be better when closer to the greens.

George, enjoy whatever floats your boat.

End of story ... 


Sean:

A few comments to your most recent post ...

Who said "differentiation" has "to be obvious?" Architects can be very clever in separating the elements of different shots through such a wide means and many times the player may not be aware of how such a fine line is involved.

You say such a situation is a "waste of time." Really. Sean, you erroneously claim that this is a US Open type philosophy. Wrong. I see it as a fundamental element of architecture where shots are graded by the design through their ability to hit shots of a certain type when called upon.

Great design, in my mind, is able to separate the supreme, very good, good, average, below average and poor shotmaking by any type of player through a variety of ways and playing styles. No doubt in order to have such a full range of situations the architect must think how such holes can play for such a wide variety of players. It's not easy for many modern courses because the available land can be limited and the terrain available may not be as unforgiving when held to the optimum standard of say TOC, to name just two aspects.

Sean, I don't think you get my point -- playability is a sometime defense used by certain higher handicap types when the reality is that they have not executed at a certain level. Architects can fool such players with the visual tough holes that look harder than they actually appear. In those instances when failure does happen the player can either accept the ownership of the poor result or they can fall back on the time honored golf tradition in pointing the finger at some other reason -- in this case, the specific hole or even course in its entirety.

You say multiple tees are bad. Baloney. The reality is that courses are not found with acres and acres of open space so that so-so shots from high handicap types can be handled from the mid to back tee boxes.

Keep in mind Sean, you do have people who think they can play from mid to back tees when the reality of their own limitations would suggest they play from tees up closer. The added tees can also soften the angles and carry points so that these players have an opportunity to succeed within their own limitations.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Define "playability" part II
« Reply #78 on: December 23, 2008, 12:11:02 PM »
If someone hits it 40-50 yards off line there are holes at Black Mesa where recoverying is possible -- in a number of other instances that would not be doable. Guess what? The same can be said for Bethpage Black, or Winged Foot / West or Oakmont or Pine Valley, Dunluce / Portrush, shall I go on?

That's where I disagree. Even the lowliest of golfers will virtually never lose a ball at Oakmont (can't speak as to the others, haven't had the pleasure).

Even decent golfers will lose balls at Black Mesa, at least from what I saw during my two rounds with golfers better than me, a lowly (in your eyes) 20 handicapper.

Nice to see you still don't understand the distinction between preference and bias...

You are correct about one thing, this is the end of the story. Merry Christmas.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Matt_Ward

Re: Define "playability" part II
« Reply #79 on: December 23, 2008, 12:18:37 PM »
George:

People lose balls at Oakmont -- people also have to hack it out sideways because the fairways are narrow in a number of spots and call upon a very high level of shotmaking.

The whole concept of Oakmont -- as decreed by the Fownes family -- was to make players pay a huge price for the least of sins from an execution standpoint. Many love such an arrangement when playing there -- others loathe it.

Do people lose balls at Black Mesa? Sure. They lose them at Pine Valley too. Does that make either or both courses less so. Not at all.

George, have a nice holiday and think about your lack of understanding on what Black Mesa provides. Possibly on a return visit your mind may open up to the rarest of possibilities that you got it wrong when you were there.

Of course, I'm assuming you have an open mind to such a possibility.

Happy holidays ...

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Define "playability" part II
« Reply #80 on: December 23, 2008, 12:23:32 PM »
George, have a nice holiday and think about your lack of understanding on what Black Mesa provides. Possibly on a return visit your mind may open up to the rarest of possibilities that you got it wrong when you were there.

Of course, I'm assuming you have an open mind to such a possibility.

Happy holidays ...

My mind is open to such a possibility, but the likelihood of a return trip is almost nonexistent. There are waaaaaaaaay too many other places I haven't seen to return to simply re-evalute.

I don't honestly think you can even begin to compare the likelihood of losing a ball at Oakmont versus BM, but I guess that's a big part of where we differ, so I will agree to disagree.

Happy holidays to you as well...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

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