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Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2008, 05:56:51 AM »
Tony,

I can whole heartedly recommend KB when I have played it has never had a new course feeling to it. I think tag on to what Mark and Mark have said, high price golf is not very British and if you look at even the bigger clubs in the Inverness region their local Membership fees show that the locals have a good relationship when it comes to value for money.

I often get the feeling that many think that if it is great then it is expensive.

Mark and Mark,

next time your in the Gullane area and don't feel like paying the Muirfield greenfee try Kilspindie. May not be on the same level as Muirfield but the golfing experience is just as good. What is interesting is seeing what a Members guest pays at many of these top courses. It is a good indication of what greenfee the members feel comfortable with.

Sean, next time play its neighbour Dunbar or pop down to the Boat.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #51 on: December 31, 2008, 06:09:56 AM »
Tony,

I can whole heartedly recommend KB when I have played it has never had a new course feeling to it. I think tag on to what Mark and Mark have said, high price golf is not very British and if you look at even the bigger clubs in the Inverness region their local Membership fees show that the locals have a good relationship when it comes to value for money.

I often get the feeling that many think that if it is great then it is expensive.

Mark and Mark,

next time your in the Gullane area and don't feel like paying the Muirfield greenfee try Kilspindie. May not be on the same level as Muirfield but the golfing experience is just as good. What is interesting is seeing what a Members guest pays at many of these top courses. It is a good indication of what greenfee the members feel comfortable with.

Sean, next time play its neighbour Dunbar or pop down to the Boat.

Jon

Yes, I really like Dunbar and Boat.  I expect on my next visit to West Lothian Dunbar will feature because there is no way I am gonna convince my crowd to part with £175 for Muirfiled - not that I would try!  To be honest, the one course I would like to see that way is Luffness.  I have found this the hardest course to access as they are always full when I try to book - and I book well in advance. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #52 on: December 31, 2008, 06:11:31 AM »
Jon,

I've played and loved Kilspindie.  Your point about members' guest rates is valid.  I don't know what the current rate is at THCEG (my father in law always pays) but I know that when I first played there as his guest in 1992 with my wife our two green fees plus a round of drinks left change from a tenner.  I'm sure it's more now but it won't be a lot.  It's a couple of years since I last played at Hoylake but I recall the day members' guest rate being around £50, which is fine by me.

Like Tony I will occasionally pay these sort of green fees for a great course with great history, to have played it.  I plan to play TOC again, hopefully in 2009 (though I'm working on an R&A member for that!) and would pay to play Muirfield if I ever got divorced and stopped getting the occasional invite from my father in law.  However, I've a long list of great clubs I want to play that might want that sort of money which I'll never get to the end of.  I don't see any point adding Castle Stuart to the bottom of that list at £225 a day - hell, that's £60 a day more than Muirfield!
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #53 on: December 31, 2008, 06:13:32 AM »
Sean,

Luffness really don't take a lot of visitors.  It's somewhere I have never played either.  In some ways the difficulty of getting on there probably make it more attractive than it would otherwise be.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2008, 07:57:52 AM »
Sean,

Luffness really don't take a lot of visitors.  It's somewhere I have never played either.  In some ways the difficulty of getting on there probably make it more attractive than it would otherwise be.

Mark,

is Luffness New all that expensive? It is a super course.

Jason Hines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #55 on: December 31, 2008, 09:20:32 AM »
Is there a cost factor involved with the pricing of green fees on the newer courses?  I would think CS has more expenses and construction debt to finance than most of the older courses that have been paid for many times over?  Is there a lesser known example of a project on the same scale as CS that has opened recently with lesser green fees?  I don’t know the answer that is why I ask.
With regards to the visitor travel questions above, I will be coming to Scotland soon, however finances are not my limitation, it is my 3 and 1 year old sons.  I have not decided the timing or route at this time, but the majority of my stops will be the places learned and recommended by this treehouse.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #56 on: December 31, 2008, 01:34:52 PM »
Sean,

Luffness really don't take a lot of visitors.  It's somewhere I have never played either.  In some ways the difficulty of getting on there probably make it more attractive than it would otherwise be.

Mark,

is Luffness New all that expensive? It is a super course.
jON,

I don't think so, though as I say I've never played it.  It's more a case of not making many times available to visitors.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Colin Sheehan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #57 on: December 31, 2008, 02:04:03 PM »
Enough about the cost of the green fees. It's five quid less than Kingsbarns and they are booked for four months straight through the summer. Clearly, the market exists for a high-end pay and play golf in Scotland, and since it will eventually be a top 50 course in the world (I'll wager anyone here who doesn't think so) that's more than suitable for such a golfing experience in that category. Surely, if the market changes and they aren't getting the bookings they expected, Mark is savvy enough to adjust accordingly. He probably has more MBA skills than anyone working in golf architecture/development anywhere. And no one, not even Mike Keiser, has thought more about the high-end pay and play golfing audience.

Every decision about the project and the course was done for them. In that sense, I admire how he is, architecturally, a populist. He wants people to have their best day of golf on his course. He wants people to play the round with one ball. He wants them engaged in each hole, enjoying the match, solving problems, deciding between options. And he'd much rather they negotiate swales and contours than bunkers.

Other things: It's very convenient for golf writers to bundle Mac Bay, Castle Course, Renaissance and Castle Stuart into timely little articles about the new courses of Scotland, but when the dust settles, the other three won't be anywhere in the league of Castle Stuart, nor will Trump's future products. As some have mentioned, CS is an exceptional course that has been extremely well thought out from every aspect of the development, design, construction process, and lion's share of the credit belongs to Mark. He's probably more worthy of a feature interview than anyone not yet in the GCA.com back catalog. He doesn't roll out a new product often, but when he does, they are worth the wait. Unlike a fee-based architect who hustles from job to job, Mark works on an entirely different calendar. He scouts the land, steers it through the entitlement process, puts up his own money, oversees the master plan, the course routing, and upon the start of construction, rolls-up his sleeves and spents every hour of the 11 hour work days in the field in charge of the crucial decisions. In this case assisted by Gil and Jim Wagner, and Stuart MCcolm. Without each of them, the project wouldn't be the same.

It will inevitably draw comparisons with KingsBarns. Like KB, CS is based on Mark's firmly held principals. Mark choose a site that is visually arresting. Endless views up and down the Moray Firth, natural and landmarks.

It has the same lack of blind and misleading features. He believes holes should be easy to read and digest from the tee. Obvious choices. The safe play, versus the aggressive play. Not "Risk reward" in that lame sense of the word, but choices that present an internal calculus for each of the following two or three shots.

As covered in one of the youtube videos, the bunkers represent the first major blending of riveted and blowout styles, often in the very same bunkers. In fact, that's one of the most intriguing progressing from Kingsbarns. Whereas Kingsbarns was all riveted in the Scottish tradition, Gil deserves a kudos for introducing the idea of "broken ground" and arrived for one of his preliminary trips with Horace Hutchinson's British Golf Links. The team took the ideas of riveting and chunking and ran with it, especially a Lossiemouth local named Ross Weeden.

Like Grant mentioned, people will not be able to appreciate the level of thought and attention paid to each detail. It's not coincidence that as many of the distant land marks fall into the sight lines. It's not coincidence that views they don't want you to see, were carefully blocked out. Even service paths, groups on the previous holes, etc.

(And to disclose, I was involved in the project three years prior to the start of construction. I lived on the grounds for five months in 2006 and an additional two in 2007.)

Happy Hogmanay.
-Colin

Anthony Gray

Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #58 on: December 31, 2008, 02:56:17 PM »


  Wow,  I don't even know where to start. Melvyn mentioned a few months ago about a course having a heartbeat. Mark Chaplin's comments were along the same lines. Can these newer courses give the golfer a "spiritual" experience like the old masters. The answer is no. But there is definatly a place for them.


  Historically the older courses were built for the community. Built for people to enjoy the spirit of the game. These newer courses are built for financial profit. Nothing wrong with financial profit, but less pure of a motivation. So these new ones will never have the heartbeat of the old ones.

  But for golf enthusiasts and connoisseurs of design thse new courses are awesome. They are selling great golf. Maybe 100 years from now they can sell both golf and tradition.

  A sidenote. Kingsbarns is not what it used to be. It does not have that relaxed scotish feelthat it had in the past.


   Anthony


Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #59 on: December 31, 2008, 04:01:13 PM »
Good post Anthony.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Colin Sheehan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #60 on: December 31, 2008, 04:12:57 PM »
The business model is this: if we build a really attractive, interesting, stimulating course that many people want to come play, and play over and over again, then we make money. It's not the driving motivations. Mark P is betting that his own vision for golf architecture will succeed in the marketplace.

And I dispute the claim CS cannot delivery a "spiritual experience." Play any of the holes (along the foreshore, especially) in the late afternoon with the sun settings above Ben Wyvis, and you won't care when the course was built.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #61 on: December 31, 2008, 04:16:15 PM »
The business model is this: if we build a really attractive, interesting, stimulating course that many people want to come play, and play over and over again, then we make money. It's not the driving motivations. Mark P is betting that his own vision for golf architecture will succeed in the marketplace.

And I dispute the claim CS cannot delivery a "spiritual experience." Play any of the holes (along the foreshore, especially) in the late afternoon with the sun settings above Ben Wyvis, and you won't care when the course was built.

Anthony, may correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not about the when!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #62 on: December 31, 2008, 06:03:52 PM »
Mark Pearce & Others -

I find your comments about commercial golf course developments being somehow alien to the "spirit" and history of Scottish golf to be at least partly mistaken and misleading. 

Golf courses built and developed for commercial purpose are part and parcel to the history and nature of the game in Scotland and just about every where else it has been played. For starters, Gleneagles, Turnberry & Cruden Bay were built as resort hotel golf courses. Dornoch gained its first renown in the 1920's as a summer resort.

There must be dozens and dozens of "golf hotels' built adjacent to other golf courses in Scotland.  If golf in Scotland was just a local affair, how and why did all these hotels get built?

DT   
 

Anthony Gray

Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #63 on: December 31, 2008, 08:07:44 PM »


   Brothers,

  Great dialouge! Spiritually CS will not be on par with the classics, but give it time.

  David Tepper makes an excellent point that many of the classics were first "resort courses". But they are less manmade than KB or CS.

  Courses are built for target audiences. On the Tom Doak interview thread Tom and Matt Ward are debating it well. In Scotland there are two types of courses. Ones built for locals and ones built visitors. The two offer differing experiences, but equally wonderful. We all have our preferences. No preference is wrong. Great golf is great golf period. Regardless of the price or age of the course.

  Anthony


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #64 on: December 31, 2008, 10:39:07 PM »
I want to know how Colin can write his third paragraph and not get ripped for it.  If I said that about a course I was working on, I'd get ripped for it.  It's fine to be proud of what you are working on, but another thing to be so dismissive of other courses in the process, especially if those other courses had different mission statements or goals.

As a Yale man he should also learn how to spell "principles."  :)

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #65 on: December 31, 2008, 11:16:48 PM »
Tom,

I just read through the read and after a couple glasses of red wine I would have to agree.

I am a bit hesitant to question Colin now as it looks like I am rushing to defend your honor in toady'istic fashion.

Let's pretend you didn't post anything . . .

Colin,

I don't know you from Adam and I do not recall any of your posts outside of this thread, so bear with my line of questioning as your post came off extremely . . . dick'ish shall we say.

I think it is great that you have this tremendous passion for CS and MP (you aren't stalking him are you?), but seriously, are you out of your mind claiming that CS is going to crap all over Machrihanish Bay, the Castle and Renaissance?

In the words of the Saturday Night Live skit - "Really, it's Really going to do that, like your positive it Really is? No doubt in your mind? Really?"

There has been excessive Old Mac worshiping over the past couple months so your CS lovefest is not unprecedented and obviously the treehouse is very excited by the first pictures of CS (I know I am) - but "where is your decency man?"

Feel free to show the love for CS, but do not feel the need to put down other courses, especially those that are either not built or not open (like CS). Especially if you are not going to put forth specific evidence discussing why CS is better than the other courses you mentioned. "Really!" 

Whatever financial model MP used may have provided him with 130 quid as a number that will work but if his risk profile was based on the last five years instead of the next five he just might be wrong. Which would be a shame because CS looks like (not is, until we can treehouse validation) the type of course everyone should play at least once in their lifetime.

I'll bet you 20 bucks it is not a Top 50 course in the world by 2012, just because you came off as such a pompous clown with that earlier post.

Tom Dunne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #66 on: December 31, 2008, 11:53:27 PM »
Tom Doak: Of course that's true, but it makes a pretty significant difference when you're the architect of record as opposed to one of the team members.

Rob Rigg: I'll take that action if you're offering it.

Happy New Year to all.


Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #67 on: January 01, 2009, 12:10:24 AM »
Tom Dunne - Colin is the bookie, he may be able to work something through other channels to find someone who will take the other side

Happy New Year (to those on the East Coast and countires east - patiently waiting out here on the Left Coast) . . .

Tom Dunne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #68 on: January 01, 2009, 12:29:33 AM »
Rob: Actually, I'm siding with Castle Stuart on this one. The rankings stuff is kind of silly, but...If Kingsbarns is currently 61 on the Golf Magazine World 100 and Parsinen has applied everything he learned from that project, plus teamed up with an architect the calibre of Gil Hanse, I'd feel pretty comfortable with that wager...if you're offering it. And I have no direct connection to this project.

Colin Sheehan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #69 on: January 01, 2009, 01:21:25 AM »
True, Tom. I should run the spell check. I type quickly without really revising what I'm writing, or thinking. I should be more careful, but I don't have time. When I go back and read my post having pushing the post button, there's plenty I wish I could have back.

As I type quickly even now:
The four I mentioned aren't courses that are still being worked on. They are completed. People are playing them. Reports are coming back. Reliable opinions are being submitted. But again, my brash statement was but a "future's option" and not a matter of fact. It's asking people to return to the subject in the future and look back. So take that prediction for what it's is. D

Yes, different courses have different mission statements, and I shouldn't come down on them because I've read a batch of lazy golf writers anoint DMK's two forthcoming projects as the greatest of all time and give Renaissance equal billing to its neighbors. I get why some writer might say that, aside from the fact they were comp'd free rounds. But when I hear from a few that I trust very highly that Mac D is perplexingly difficult and Castle unplayable...well, I don't think every new, heralded course has to automatically be great. So don't believe the type, mine included.

Yes, I have a conflict of interest, indeed, but having spent nearly 2000 hours participating on the site, being on the grounds, knowing what Scottish links is really about, enjoying and appreciating Kingsbarns, yet knowing there was room for which to improve upon, I think people will be surprised with CS. I'll back off "promoting" it for any future threads and posts, but what I suppose I was responding to, and why I was annoyed (and why I didn't bother to participate on the site for five or six years) was that a topic began sharing a new website. It's filled with architectural philosophy and images, so plenty of opportunities to discuss architecture, and it begins a rather unintelligent digression, in this case about greens fees. I get how it works. This is not a complaint.

I propose an architectural discussion. Perhaps people would like to comment about theses subjects.

Here's three quick reasons why I think it will be great.
1. There is width but with meaning. Holes have preferred angles and to quote Mark, "the issue isn't getting the ball in play, but getting it in the right portion of the fairway." We have all discussed width before, but sometimes I feel there's width without purpose. Width for the sake of having width. Width because it's a widdy site, Width because you can. There will be real advantages (nor thin marginal differences) between being on the left edge or the right edge of the fairway. (As an aside, the average guys will enjoy playing the course without losing too many balls. (I love Lossiemouth dearly, but that's not a claim you can make about her.)

2. The nature of the site, and the routing, lends itself to easily compartmentalizing the holes at the end of the round. The course begins along the shore for three holes, turns toward the Castle. Moves inland for two holes, followed by three holes along the sea shelf. The back nine returns (in the opposite dirrection) along the Firth, followed by another move inland, and returning hole with two holes along the sea shelf. The elevation is much higher on the final three or four holes, and you get this wonderful chance on 17 and 18 to see everywhere you've just been for the past four hours. This will no doubt add to the satisfaction of the place. It's something that people won't necessarily realize til later. Believe it or not, that matters. Surely, that's part of what Tom achieved at Pac Dunes by weaving to and away from the coast in different portions of each nine. By the way, compartmentalizing the course, or remember each of the holes after the round, has never been a major criteria for me (luckily, I have an easy time remembering every hole on good and bad courses alike), but the average visitor will appreciate it, whether they realize it or not.

3. Where many architects might choose to place a bunker as a greenside hazard, Gil and Mark choose tight swales, like an endless variation on the Valley of Sin theme. Those of you who fear bunkers (and you know who you are) and would rather negotiate contours with a putter, or wedge or eight irons, or five irons, or hybrid, or three-wood realize they can be much more fun than the un-nuance of a bunker explosion shot.

And to repeat, this is one man's opinion, but I think the course will eventually join an elite category. And I sincerely hole, and I know Mark is counting on this, it greatly adds to the draw of golfers that make the trek to the Highlands. Having lived there for as long as I could, it was a special place. I was very fortunate that a dear friend from America has relocated to the village or Dornoch. We had a standing game each Tuesday night during the summer to play RD at twlight. Around the summer solstice, we once teed off at 8:45 and completed the round without losing a ball to darkness. It included a one-footer for eagle at 15. On another occasion, when it was much darker, he told me (and he said, I've never been able to tell anyone this) to aim at Venus for drive on the 16th hole. I loved those evenings. I also joined Fortrose and Rosemarkie and Lossie whilst over there. As many know, there is a treasure trove of golf, and Inverness has been revitalized in the past few years.

Now it's time for sleep.
Be well. Happy New Year.
-Colin


Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #70 on: January 01, 2009, 02:39:08 AM »
Tom Dunne,

If you re-read anything I have posted on this thread, it has only been positive about CS in terms of what the pictures show - ie) compelling GCA and a spectacular setting - I even called out the interesting bunkering in my initial post which Colin also alluded to. ie) a combination of several styles and quite unique. I am not debating whether it will be an architectural, or even rating success, because I am as confident that it will as OM.

The only reason I offered to bet Colin is because I thought his post was over the top in its apparent disdain for several other courses that are either highly rated or compelling in their initial pictures and commentary as well.

Colin thank you for providing further insight into the architectural merits of CS, and for at least mentioning some of the "drawbacks" you have "heard" about the other courses. It will be interesting to get feedback from the larger group in time as they get out and play them. I for one, value the opinions and discussion of those on this site more than any raters - and I would be shocked if CS did not fare extremely well, but I thought it was unfair to crap on Mac Dunes, Castle and Ren so strongly.

I also think you have a fair point in revealing some displeasure with this thread shifting its focus on greens fees after starting with high praise for the architecture.

At least for me, this digression is somewhat born out of frustration. Obviously, and understandably, a developer needs to turn a profit to make his venture worthwhile, but I do wish the great courses of the world were more accessible and affordable for not only those who can afford them without batting an eyelid but those who truly cherish their significance in terms of GCA and would love to experience everything they have to offer at least once in their lifetime.

For those of us who are not "comp'd" nor flush with cash, a trip to Scotland (or anywhere really) is a balance between ambition to see and play courses we dream about and economic reality. This was not always the case in GBI - most courses were much more accessible 10 years ago.

Your three points below are all written with a passion and flair that, if true, makes CS a must play. Your third point is the most interesting IMO - ie) let the textures of the landscape make the golfer strategize about how to proceed around the greens, not bunkers. This is something lacking significantly on many NA courses, but much more prevalent in GBI, and a wonderful element to for any course to possess.

Sidenote - I hope Mac Dunes is not as diabolical as you have mentioned, the aesthetic qualities are astounding (per Aidan's pictures) and I was hoping that this would be one DMK project that was not incredibly polarizing (like the Castle and Tetherow).

Any left coasties still up? Slainte lads and may you have a great 2009!

« Last Edit: January 01, 2009, 02:47:17 AM by Rob Rigg »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #71 on: January 01, 2009, 02:41:05 AM »


 
 .

  A sidenote. Kingsbarns is not what it used to be. It does not have that relaxed scotish feelthat it had in the past.


   Anthony




Anthony,

That is quite the most fatuous statement I have heard in years. What "relaxed feel" are we talking about? There is much about the Scots to know, but being relaxed is not one of them. Go to a Rangers-Celtic match and you will know of which I speak.

Knocking Kingsbarns seems to be a de riguere on this site which I fail to understand. It is a superb test of golf, enjoyable to the scratch man and tyro and a visual delight.

Bob  

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #72 on: January 01, 2009, 04:37:33 AM »
I propose an architectural discussion. Perhaps people would like to comment about theses subjects.

Here's three quick reasons why I think it will be great.
1. There is width but with meaning. Holes have preferred angles and to quote Mark, "the issue isn't getting the ball in play, but getting it in the right portion of the fairway." We have all discussed width before, but sometimes I feel there's width without purpose. Width for the sake of having width. Width because it's a widdy site, Width because you can. There will be real advantages (nor thin marginal differences) between being on the left edge or the right edge of the fairway. (As an aside, the average guys will enjoy playing the course without losing too many balls. (I love Lossiemouth dearly, but that's not a claim you can make about her.)

2. The nature of the site, and the routing, lends itself to easily compartmentalizing the holes at the end of the round. The course begins along the shore for three holes, turns toward the Castle. Moves inland for two holes, followed by three holes along the sea shelf. The back nine returns (in the opposite dirrection) along the Firth, followed by another move inland, and returning hole with two holes along the sea shelf. The elevation is much higher on the final three or four holes, and you get this wonderful chance on 17 and 18 to see everywhere you've just been for the past four hours. This will no doubt add to the satisfaction of the place. It's something that people won't necessarily realize til later. Believe it or not, that matters. Surely, that's part of what Tom achieved at Pac Dunes by weaving to and away from the coast in different portions of each nine. By the way, compartmentalizing the course, or remember each of the holes after the round, has never been a major criteria for me (luckily, I have an easy time remembering every hole on good and bad courses alike), but the average visitor will appreciate it, whether they realize it or not.

3. Where many architects might choose to place a bunker as a greenside hazard, Gil and Mark choose tight swales, like an endless variation on the Valley of Sin theme. Those of you who fear bunkers (and you know who you are) and would rather negotiate contours with a putter, or wedge or eight irons, or five irons, or hybrid, or three-wood realize they can be much more fun than the un-nuance of a bunker explosion shot.

Col

#3 really caught my attention.  Do you have a few pix of places where bunkering was considered, but eventually nixed in favour of swales and presumably bumps?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Colin Sheehan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #73 on: January 01, 2009, 09:27:35 AM »
Sean,

Check out the image for 14. The bunkers behind the green won't see much business. But people will surely be short and right facing a very "Foxy" like up and over. That could have easily been a bunker on the right in the low, but was much more dangerous as tight mow.

Another interesting feature of the course is Jim Wagner's rumple stylings.
Check out the images for hole 13. Mark was heavily influenced by the Old Course (he lived off the 18th hole for years, he played a few hundred times and walked it most Sundays) and he took away from the leading rumple, like the front of two. He, Jim and myself drove down on Sunday morning early in the process and we went out and surveyed the green. We took images and tossed a bunch of balls into the leading contours to simulate approach shots. When approached from one angle, the feature is a correcting contour. Approached from left half of the fairway, and the rumple deflects it to the right, as a hurting contour. Rather simple, of course. People have been doing this forever. But the image of the rumple on 13 is a mirror of that run-up to the second green at the OC. Jim did an admirable job. And what some have noticed, is that is one of the in-land holes. But the long, gradual slope to the entire properties allows for an infinity green and the satisfying view of the Kessock Bridge and Inverness in the distance.

Anthony Gray

Re: Castle Stuart goes live
« Reply #74 on: January 01, 2009, 09:47:46 AM »


 
 .

  A sidenote. Kingsbarns is not what it used to be. It does not have that relaxed scotish feelthat it had in the past.


   Anthony




Anthony,

That is quite the most fatuous statement I have heard in years. What "relaxed feel" are we talking about? There is much about the Scots to know, but being relaxed is not one of them. Go to a Rangers-Celtic match and you will know of which I speak.

Knocking Kingsbarns seems to be a de riguere on this site which I fail to understand. It is a superb test of golf, enjoyable to the scratch man and tyro and a visual delight.

Bob  

   Bob,

  I have friends that live and have worked at Kingsbarns. In the past it was a great place to golf , shower, and have a bowl of soup. A very friendly a place. Two years ago I went to get a tee time and a bowl of soup. The pro shop was busy so I took a seat next to the window. I was told rather sternly that unless I was playing that day I could not be served. I assume the other 3 people in the resteraunt had played or were going to. Also some of the tour guys have noticed a change in the past years.

  All said FANTASTIC GOLF. But very few locals golf there as much as in the past thus the observation of less of a scotish feel as say Crail or the early days of Kingsbarns

  Anthony


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