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Ian Andrew

Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #100 on: January 02, 2009, 03:39:26 PM »
Matt,

re: The 11th at Rock Creek

I played left three times (succesfully) and each time hit my approach over the green. The last two were the best swings I'm capable of and each found the middle of the green and eventually the back bunker. (for your clarity) I don't spin the ball.

Meanwhile my playing partners each time found the green from the lower right. I looked at the green for a while after the third time through. I'm still not convinced the upper fairway is the play unless you can draw the ball. The green slopes to the right - which favours the right side approach.

I really liked the hole - but after a few plays I wonder if I wasn't picking the wrong location to hit an approach from.


Matt_Ward

Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #101 on: January 02, 2009, 03:49:33 PM »
Ian:

I can't speak to your own lack of success -- but I will say this -- the right side is no bargain and requires a very good sense of yardage and trajectory to sit near any pin location from that spot.

The left side, on the other hand, does open up all views to any pin location. It's then just a matter of proper execution.

Let me put it this way -- I hit my driver down the right edge of the "spine" and had no more than 90 yards to the hole but the shot was completely blind and difficult to gauge. I came up short -- I later dropped a ball around 140 yards out but on the far left side -- the wherewithal to "see" the different pin locations, I believe, makes for a big time difference.

My point on mentioning the hole is how the added element of a spine does impact strategic calculations at the tee. If there were no spine it would be nothing more than a bombs away philosophy for the stronger player.

No doubt just because one reaches the optimum landing area that doesn't automatically mean a guaranteed result for the approach shot. Still, I'd much rather be coming in from the left for all the reasons I mentioned.

One last thing -- you didn't mention what your playing partners scored when approaching from the right versus what happened to you.

Eric_Terhorst

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #102 on: January 02, 2009, 05:00:07 PM »
Eric:

Let me point out -- the Bang Storm driver - which I use as well as countless others -- complies with all USGA specifications. Ditto the clubs used by those who competed in the Remax long drive competition that I prefaced previously.

One other thing -- the issue of power and golfers seeking extra yardage is as old as the hills.

If you want to link Bang as some sort of modern Darth Vader be sure to throw the term "offensive" to others in the equipment industry as well. 

Matt,

Let me point out--I'm not offended, I don't have to make a living playing golf or building golf courses--I was simply suggesting that it was easy to understand why Tom Doak might be put off.  Bang says that most of their clubs are conforming-no doubt, it must be true. 

I will say that power doesn't interest me that much.  Given a choice between JB Holmes power and Tiger Woods' or Phil M's or Ben Crenshaw's or Steve Stricker's putting stroke, or Mike Weir's wedge skills, that would be an easy choice for me.

I agree that advances in technology have always been part of golf, and I'm not one of those that insists that rolling back the ball, e.g., is the only answer, but I wonder if we're reaching a limit?  Just curious--does the advance in technology ever, for you, get to a point where you have enough?  Is 325 enough or do you want to hit a driver 400 yards easily on every try?    Do you want to see 8,000 yard golf courses everywhere, with the attendant costs?  Or would you be happy to hit putters and lob wedges into every green after Banging it with your Storm ? 

Matt_Ward

Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #103 on: January 02, 2009, 05:21:00 PM »
Eric:

With all due respect -- you have completely lost the point about what was said on this thread early on regarding how to contain power players while still preserving the playability element. You think I am advocating more and more license -- when the actuality is quite different.

Eric, you missed another point - check out the tour stats on distance off the tee. You might notice the trend really peaked out a few years ago. Of course, there are still the 1% or 2% of the folks who rate plenty of mentions but the idea that technology is providing for even more length is not supported by the measurable data.

I previously opined that one of the real successful ways to get a handle on those who bomb'n gouge is to move fairways -- even slightly -- to encourage shot shaping -- not just encourage power for the sake of power.

I also mentioned a few holes I played last year among the more recent openings in which this had been done -- while at the same time preservng a playability component.

Eric, regarding my appetite for new advances. I play what is deemed legal. If things should change then I will adjust accordingly.

But, often times - the people bemoaning the distance dimension usually do so from the standpoint that they don't possess that aspect in their own games. I'm not advocating for longer and longer courses -- I even opined -- if you read it -- that Tiger faced some of his most demanding tests on courses that weren't long (see Westchester CC) but required a good bit in terms of shot shaping when called upon.

Getting strong players to work the ball -- would temper the all-out desire to smoke the ball no matter the costs. There have to be costs -- and they don't just have to be the narrow fairways with hay-like rough bordering them to do so. The holes I outlined show clearly how that can be done.

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #104 on: January 02, 2009, 05:40:08 PM »
Matt - to what degree does distance control off of the tee seem to you to be a skill that the longer player should have to exercise? For example, what do you think of a hole that rewards a drive of, say, 280 yards with an optimal angle and view of the green, but a longer drive results in a blind approach or more difficult angle? Is this somehow unfair to the guy who can hit it farther than 280? Sometimes it seems like you believe that more length off the tee should always be rewarded with not just the inevitable shorter second, but with an easier angle, and better visibility as well. Should second-shot difficulty be inversely proportional to how far the drive is struck, no matter what? And I'm not just talking about shaping a drive, but hitting to a particular distance that might actually be LESS than the absolute maximum.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Matt_Ward

Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #105 on: January 02, 2009, 06:12:20 PM »
Kirk:
 
Sometimes the forced layback ("distance control") as you opined, does result in such a situation and if used at an appropriate time, without overkill, is fine. I just don't think power players should be shackled through a constant inclusion if they marry the elements of both distance and shot control (defined by the ability to work the ball both ways when called upon).

Kirk, you are focusing on the distance control element. The big item with today's drivers is how they have straightened out many players but getting to work the ball when going full throttle is not an easy situation to do consistently. Winged Foot, which I mentioned previously, forces the player to work his ball with sufficient length throughout the round. Simply pounding it for the sake of pounding is not sufficient in and of itself.

Kirk, I believe power is part and parcel of golf. No less than accuracy. Sometimes short knockers bemoan long hitters because the element of length will never be a part of their arsenal and that lon ghitters get the added advantage of a shorter shot and easier angle. I do believe that length can be challenged through a wide variety of architectural elements beyond the simple narrowing of fairways to bowling alley width and then flanked with hay-like rough -- see a place like Dunluce at Royal Portrush as an example of this type.

If you were to play the 11th at Rock Creek -- Doak challenges the player to head down the left side -- it is narrower than the right as it should be -- and should such a player successfully do it and in the course of doing it hit a very long and well placed tee shot then the reward should be worth the effort made.

If you don't provide the reward for such an effort the stronger player will not simply go that way but another. However, golf design should not be about providing dead-ends or one-way oriented design to strong players simply because they are stronger. The compelling nature of the 11th at Rock Creek is not that it mandates a certain play but that it provides a variety of choices when you step on the tee. The final result is in the player's hands -- as it should be.

I have no issue with the inclusion of strategic elements that call upon a player to hit to "X" distance off the tee. Going too far can result in a penalty of some sort -- that can happen with the 6th at Tetherow. The player has to decide what angle and at what length would be optimum for him.

Kirk, I understand your desire for distance control -- but it's easier to clubdown than it is to work the ball with the big stick. Strong players with any brains in their heads will forego the desire to beat on the tee shot if another avenue is available. Shaping shots -- going in either direction and trajectory control -- how high or low one can hit a shot -- are two of the more demanding elements one faces. I would urge architects to include a broad variety of strategic shots / holes that call upon such elements while still preserving core elements tied to playability. It's not easy to do but I have seen clear instances in which it can be done.

Jim Nugent

Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #106 on: January 03, 2009, 02:41:24 AM »

Jim,

Bang offers golfers the Bangenstein  http://www.banggolf.com/prodgroup.asp?cat=DRVBSTN

"The Bangenstein driver features triple face technology (non USGA conforming) that has a higher COR value. The hitting face is so solid that it is virtually unbreakable. This driver is said to be like a monster from hell when it’s hitting a ball, with its terrorizing roaring sound and the unbelievable long drive."

If you're interested in beating your opponents into submission with a "terrorizing" driver, why not go for the Bangenstein?  How many of those cowering weaklings will know it's non-conforming?

I think it's fairly easy to understand how a GCA with a long-time interest in preserving older golf courses might find the values espoused by Bang to be offensive.

Eric, maybe my wires got crossed.  Here is Matt's last line, posted hours before Tom's request:

"By the way -- if someone has a driver four or more years older they are really allowing technology to be used by their opponents and putting themselves at a disadvantage."

Is this an offensive statement? 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #107 on: January 03, 2009, 09:03:37 AM »
Jim N:

I was offended because Matt's statement (true or not, I don't really give a damn) made this thread, with my name on it, look like a promotion for modern equipment.  And that's just NOT what I'm about.  I firmly believe you can go out and play golf with ANY set of clubs and have a great time.  (And let me make it clear that I'm not talking about an expensive collection of hickory clubs here, either ... anyone who has ever looked in my golf bag would understand.)

And now, not only is the thread promoting the idea that you have to buy new equipment all the time if you want to play golf in friendly competition, it's promoting a specific driver!  I've never seen this driver, but if I had a vote, I'd probably vote to ban it from the game sight unseen.

SWolffe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #108 on: January 03, 2009, 09:15:28 AM »
Very nice article! 

Happy New Year! 

Stuart Wolffe

Matt_Ward

Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #109 on: January 03, 2009, 11:47:43 AM »
Tom:

With all due respect -- you'e getting a bit thin-skinned on this subject. Threads can start in a certain way and then move in other directions. For you to make the quantum leap that just the discussion of equipment means a clear link / promotion from you (because your name is on the the title of the thread) is ridiculous.

I would think people can read what has been written and who has written it.

No doubt people can play with whatever they want. If that means playing with what Bobby Jones used -- so be it. The issue arose concerning what equipment I use and I simply opined that modern technology is something most golfers should check out given the advantages it provides. No less than Frank Thomas has said this -- as well as others. People are clearly free to use whatever works for them as Phil Y mentioned.

I never said for people to buy such equipment. I simply provided a link so that those who may not know much about equipment can check it out. The model I use is full in conformance with USGA specs. I have no connection to the company and simply mentioned what I use. For you to throw forward "I've never seen this driver, but if I had a vote, I'd probably vote to ban it from the game sight unseen," is prickly at minimum and demonstrates a closed mind at worst.

Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #110 on: January 03, 2009, 12:12:05 PM »
I'd ban the driver simply based on the stupid name.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #111 on: January 03, 2009, 06:17:06 PM »
Rob:

On a calm day / sea level my total carry and runout with a driver can exceed 300 yards. As an FYI -- I use a 5.5 degree loft 47-inch Bang Storm Driver with a XXX ETA Pavlet Shaft via Penley.


Matt,

 I have to see this thing at Pound Ridge next summer.  ;D I mean Matt 47 inches. 47 freakin inches. I recognize that we should take this over to Bombsquad, but I just can't get over this. 47 inches!!

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #112 on: January 03, 2009, 11:25:27 PM »
Are women and children allowed to view the XXX ETA shaft in action?

"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #113 on: January 03, 2009, 11:40:16 PM »
Jim N:

I was offended because Matt's statement (true or not, I don't really give a damn) made this thread, with my name on it, look like a promotion for modern equipment.  And that's just NOT what I'm about.  I firmly believe you can go out and play golf with ANY set of clubs and have a great time.  (And let me make it clear that I'm not talking about an expensive collection of hickory clubs here, either ... anyone who has ever looked in my golf bag would understand.)

And now, not only is the thread promoting the idea that you have to buy new equipment all the time if you want to play golf in friendly competition, it's promoting a specific driver!  I've never seen this driver, but if I had a vote, I'd probably vote to ban it from the game sight unseen.

And it's worse than just that. It is promoting modern equipment with the same false claims that you will get from some pushy salesperson in the golf store.

And if you think he is actually maintaining a valid 1.6 index while playing with a 47 inch driver, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #114 on: January 03, 2009, 11:50:43 PM »
This reminds me of a commercial a few years ago, of a phony movie trailer in the background, while the gravel voiced announcer says:  "This movie is gonna blow."  Unless you've seen the commercial, it's probably not that funny.

Deeply:  "The Bangenstein is a monster from hell on the golf course.  This driver is gonna blow!"

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #115 on: January 03, 2009, 11:54:06 PM »
Hot Dog!  I found it.  It's an E-Trade commercial.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td4VEGiIQmk

Sell, sell!

Matt_Ward

Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #116 on: January 03, 2009, 11:59:57 PM »
Guys:

For all you moaners and groaners why don't you simply demo the club as you would any other. Simple as that. If you wish to continue playing with clubs from other time periods more power to you.

I laugh when I read Mike Wagner's comments on the stupid name for Bang. Maybe he might remember another silly name that made a fortune -- does the name "Big Bertha" mean anything?

Garland:

Please. In regards to claims -- I stand by what I said as it relates to me. You bark about false claims -- please let me know which ones you see as being false. In regards to my handicap it's likely higher than I would like and part of that stems from going from ping irons back to muscle back irons (M67 Mizuno's). 

If you have not used the Bang Storm club -- by all means either check it out or use what you want. Simple as that.

John K:

Claims of all equipment companies are based on hype -- you would simply need to demo the club(s) and see if they work for you.

I'll tell you this -- after having seen many of them on display at the PGA Show -- there are a number of smaller-sized companies that put out fine product but because of marketing and advertising limitations cannot be seen on regular TV as you do with Nike, Callaway, Titleist, etc, etc. 

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #117 on: January 04, 2009, 12:10:25 AM »
...
Garland:

Please. In regards to claims -- I stand by what I said as it relates to me. You bark about false claims -- please let me know which ones you see as being false. In regards to my handicap it's likely higher than I would like and part of that stems from going from ping irons back to muscle back irons (M67 Mizuno's). 

If you have not used the Bang Storm club -- by all means either check it out or use what you want. Simple as that.

...

Matt,

I'll take that as an admission that you seldom hit the ball on the center of the club face, because modern equipment will help you with your mishits. Otherwise you a making physically impossible claims if I remember my stats on COR correctly.

I guess that seldom hitting the ball on the center of the club face would have more to do with your 1.6 being a vanity handicap than any set of Mizuno irons. Huckaby could probably beat you one handed and he's only a 4.1. ;)

BTW, I play an age appropriate Bang driver.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #118 on: January 04, 2009, 12:21:44 AM »

Mike B:

I live in North Jersey -- so it should not be so tough to find out the info you seek.




Is that New York state or New Jersey?  ;)


Obviously, your length (and I assume accuracy) off the tee is an advantage for you against 99.9% of golfers and probably +90% of the golf courses.

Is driving the best aspect of your game? 

Do courses that do not allow you to take advantage of the best aspect of your game get a lower rating? 

Can anyone be impartial when evaluating a course that identifies their weakness on a golf course?
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #119 on: January 04, 2009, 08:27:15 AM »
Nice interview with Tom posted on Golf Digest
 
http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/2009/02/tomdoak 



Rich - thanks for posting the interview.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #120 on: January 04, 2009, 11:10:57 AM »
Matt:

I don't think I'm getting thin skinned.  If someone Googles "Tom Doak interview" they may wind up on this fine thread with you shilling for your driver.  That may even be why you chose to put it here ... seeing as how "Matt Ward's opinion" probably doesn't generate many Google queries.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #121 on: January 04, 2009, 11:18:03 AM »
Googling Tom Doak nets 91,800 hits.  Matt Ward takes you to some musician.  The first "real" Matt Ward entry is indeed a golf club atlas post.

But, I would think in this slowdown, if TD is famous enough, he should probably consider some endorsement deals.   Pete Dye did do an AMEX commercial years ago, and RTJII was in a Titleist ad.

Actually, for years, I have been trying to get golf club and clothing makers to pay me to NOT use their stuff in order to help their sales.  No nibbles yet.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #122 on: January 04, 2009, 11:18:29 AM »
Googling "Tom Doak Interview" generates 7290 hits.  "Matt Ward's opinion" generates 621,000.  That's a lot of hot air :P
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #123 on: January 04, 2009, 11:27:50 AM »
Actually "Tom Doak interview" got 83 matches, the first one being this thread.

"Matt Ward's opinion" got 2 matches.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Golf Digest Tom Doak Interview
« Reply #124 on: January 04, 2009, 11:32:35 AM »
Jeff:

I am still shunning endorsements in hopes of someday qualifying for the stringent ethics code of the ASGCA.  ;)

My associates have pointed out that every construction site picture ever taken of me is essentially a free product placement for Coca-Cola, but I'm not getting a thing for that.