[Jay Flemma]

I'll be playing a few Jeff courses this year!  We had a brief discussion of Cowboys GC in 2005 that really never discussed the course.  I'll also play Giant's Ridge (Quarry and Legend).

Yes, by the way, I did do a search on the site engine.  The latest GR thread is here:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36661.0.html

Lets talk some more about Cowboys and Minnesota...or other Jeff courses if you've played them, by way of comparison.

Who are Jeff's influences?  What things set a Jeff course apart from the rest of the pack.  If someone dropped you in the middle of a Jeff course, how might you identify it.

Jeff, the photo tour of Cowboys and the photo thread of giants seem to indicate they are NOTHING even remotely alike.  Coyboys seems - as the cowboys thread indicates - like what Americans normally expect, lots of water, a little bit narrower, flattish fairways, and a mix of hazards.  GR seems like it has dramatic undulations and wiiiiiiiiiide open fwys with huge, almost Mackenzie-like bunkers (at least from the pix).  How are the greens at each.

What secrets should I be on the lookout for at Cowboys?  Giants?  Hey!  You've Got a "Giants" course and a "Cowboys" course...any chance of rounding out the NFC East with an Eagles or redskins course?   How about my steelers?


Jeff, if "Randy Random" were to walk up to you and say "I can only play five of your courses what do you recommend," what would you say?

I know it's early to make plans, but the Fri-Mon before the PGA at hazeltine, I'll play Big Fish and Giants, so if you wanna tag along...

[K. Krahenbuhl]

The Wilderness has been on my short list of places to play in Lake Jackson, TX.  Maybe I'll head over there later this week or next.

[Jay Flemma]

Kyle refresh my recollection again...where in TX are you?  Anywhere near Dallas?

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Houston.

[Ian Larson]

Is it just me or has Jeff not been posting as much as he does lately?

[Dave Bourgeois]

Jay,

Play JB's Indian Creek while in Dallas, TX.  The greens are pretty wild and loads of fun.... Much cheaper than Cowboys (which I did not play).

[Shane Wright]

Jay,  I will look into possibly meeting you at Giant's Ridge...i live in Minneapolis.  I have played the course about 5 times and will never get sick of it. 

I'll be playing a few Jeff courses this year!  We had a brief discussion of Cowboys GC in 2005 that really never discussed the course.  I'll also play Giant's Ridge (Quarry and Legend).

Yes, by the way, I did do a search on the site engine.  The latest GR thread is here:

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36661.0.html

Lets talk some more about Cowboys and Minnesota...or other Jeff courses if you've played them, by way of comparison.

Who are Jeff's influences?  What things set a Jeff course apart from the rest of the pack.  If someone dropped you in the middle of a Jeff course, how might you identify it.

Jeff, the photo tour of Cowboys and the photo thread of giants seem to indicate they are NOTHING even remotely alike.  Coyboys seems - as the cowboys thread indicates - like what Americans normally expect, lots of water, a little bit narrower, flattish fairways, and a mix of hazards.  GR seems like it has dramatic undulations and wiiiiiiiiiide open fwys with huge, almost Mackenzie-like bunkers (at least from the pix).  How are the greens at each.

What secrets should I be on the lookout for at Cowboys?  Giants?  Hey!  You've Got a "Giants" course and a "Cowboys" course...any chance of rounding out the NFC East with an Eagles or redskins course?   How about my steelers?


Jeff, if "Randy Random" were to walk up to you and say "I can only play five of your courses what do you recommend," what would you say?

I know it's early to make plans, but the Fri-Mon before the PGA at hazeltine, I'll play Big Fish and Giants, so if you wanna tag along...

[Jay Flemma]

shane and dave, that all sounds good.  Any pix of Indian Creek?

[Tony_Chapman]

Jay -- Anytime I can toot Jeff's horn, I do. My stock quote on Jeff is that in the early 1990s took Nebraska golf to new heights. He and Dick Youngscap, when he developed Firethorn.

Jeff built two public courses near Lincoln that are loads of fun to play: Highlands (owned by the city) and Woodland Hills (on an old tree farm about 20 minutes from downtown). He also built Champions Run in Omaha which hosts the Nationwide event.

His work for the folks of Newton, KS at Sand Creek Station is worth a look in your in Prairie Dunes-land. I've always thought there were many ways around a Brauer course and he treats you to a load of different shots. That said, the growth of his work can clearly be seen in his new stuff in TX, KS and MN from his early stuff in the Cornhusker State.

Have fun!

[Jay Flemma]

That sounds nice.  I may do Neb later in the year.  What are some of Jeff's design traits?  If someone airlifted you onto a Jeff course, how would you tell it's a Jeff course?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jay,

Not sure how I missed this one.  What courses would I suggest they play?  Well, its always the next one, of course.

The three in MN are pretty good examples of my work.  I have two in KS with a third on the way that are ranked the No. 1 and 2 publics there - Colbert Hills and Sand Creek Station.  I have 3 around Lincoln/Omaha - Champions Run, Highlands, Woodland Hills (Eagle, NB) and also the Pioneer Park remodel of a Tucker course in Lincoln.

In DFW I would direct folks to Cowboys, Tangleridge and Indian Creek (Creeks) which is a re-do of a good Dick Phelps course, so he gets credit for the routing (only a few holes changed) but I modernized it a bit.

Elsewhere, Avocet at Wild Wing in Myrtle Beach is still one of my favorites, even though I haven't seen it in a while.

As someone mentioned, Cowboys and Indian Creek both push the limits of green contouring.  I am flattening out my greens more now after a period of trying to be different from all others who were making very tee like greens......Other design traits are the usual inclusion of a split fw, Mac like bunkers (except the Quarry where I used the leftover spoil shelves a lot) and often, green backing mounds, even if the discussion board here doesn't care for them.....

Looking forward to hockey on NYE and golf on NYD!

[Jason Topp]

Jay:

Jeff can speak for himself regarding his design influences etc. 

I recommend you play the courses up near Giant's Ridge in the order they were built - Legends, Quarry, Wilderness.  I would guess they were each built about 5 years apart and playing them in order reveals Jeff being more and more daring with each design. 

[Jay Flemma]

Hey Jeff:

Well the thread started at 11 today, so you didn't miss it at all.

First off, since BFS and I lost Flemmapalooza I to Jim Engh 4-1, so we're psyched to play.  Also psyched to watch the sj sharks get starry eyes and lose.

You know, looking at the pix of Minn, I thought those looked a little Mack-ish.

Avocet?  I never knew that was yours.  I'll try it next time in MB.

[Adam Clayman]

I've only seen a few of Jeff's courses. Cowboys, Champions Run and the green surrounds at Pioneer.

From my perspective, growing up and learning the Kilian & Nugent name early on, I'd say Jeff's work closely resembles their work. They too favored a stereotypical Mac bunker look, diagonal hazards and ... hmm....

and often, green backing mounds, even if the discussion board here doesn't care for them.....

lots and lots of mounding.


Why are rear mounds so vilified? 

[cary lichtenstein]

I've only played one of Jeff's courses, The Quarry at Giants Ridge and I think it is terrific. Don't pass up the opportunity to play it.

[Jay Flemma]

Don't worry cary, quarry@giants is one of two DEFINITES on the trip.  Big fish is the other.

[Jeff Shelman]

Jay,

If you're going to go all the way up to Giants Ridge, my piece of advice is this: Play the Quarry course there and then get in your car and drive the 30 minutes to Jeff's Wilderness course at Fortune Bay Casino.

The original course at Giants Ridge is fine if you have time to play all three courses up there. If not, blow off the Legend course and make the 30 minute drive. It is totally worth it.

And Big Fish is very good. Was there over the summer and it was much improved over a couple of years ago.

I'll be up for playing as well if you're looking for people. Also, if you play with Shane Wright, bring your 'A' game as the dude can play.

[Jay Flemma]

I looked at the wilderness.  It looks like it's on the way back to Hazeltine, so it may be in the cards.  I don't have an A Game:)  Unless I find one by a miracle this trip.  I will finally have time to work on my golf, and I'll get some practice time (for once), so here's hoping 2009 will continue the upward trend...and faster than its been coming.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jay,

Wilderness is actually 24 miles north of Giants Ridge, not on the way back to Hazeltine.  And that's if you know the back roads like I do - not all are paved on the shortest route!  But I agree with the poster who says play Quarry and Wilderness rather than both at the Quarry, despite the fact that some people still favor the Legend as their fave of the 3. I have played both in a day and made it back to MSP.

BTW, I looked at what became of Big Fish early on.  It would have been interesting to have another course up there, but so goes it.

Of course, we can talk more in the next few days......

Ian Larson,

I haven't been posting nearly as much lately.  Every year, I make a resolution to cut back, way back.  I started early this year and hope to keep it going next year.

[Gary_K]

I have 3 around Lincoln/Omaha - Champions Run, Highlands, Woodland Hills (Eagle, NB) and also the Pioneer Park remodel of a Tucker course in Lincoln.

Jeff has a 4th course in the Omaha area, Bent Tree Golf Club in Council Bluffs, Ia.  Just across the river to the east of Omaha.

http://www.benttreegolfcb.com/

[Matthew Rose]

I have played Highlands and Woodland Hills a few times, and I used to play a lot at Pioneers Park - our family was good friends with the guy who was the pro there in the 70s and 80s.

I prefer Woodland Hills a bit more than Highlands, due to a much more favorable setting, although Highlands has a special significance to me because my childhood home is about two blocks from where the 11th tee is now. A shame it wasn't built 10 years earlier, or it would have probably been where I learned to play.

I know Pioneers had most of the greens rebuilt about 15-20 years ago.... would this be Jeff's doing?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,

I redid the greens at Pioneers in 1988 or 1989.  My instructions were to do a bunkerless course to make it unique to the City of Lincoln golf system.  They liked it, and while they interviewed five firms, it led to me getting the Highland job a few years later.

Woodland Hills does have a great setting and was touted as a true $1Million dollar course in the late 80's, which it was (well, $1.2M)  It certainly is a good billboard for affordable golf.

[Steve Lang]

   I guess there's two Wilderness Courses on the Brauer Trail..

Jeff, is Lake Jackson in Freeport, TX the southern tip of the Brauer trail?  It probably has one of the longest gestation periods of any modern course..
There are deceptive visuals on the essentially flat setting, some mounds framing various things and elevated greens, a variety of green shapes and angles, drainage features and terrors awaiting, and a few wild hogs if the double fencing breaks down

Kyle, why don't we head down there this week or early next to continue preparations for the 30th Parallel Gang outing?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Steve,

Yes there are two....including the one in Lake Jackson, which was built in half of their Wilderness Park, which allowed me to suggest that as the hame. Just when I felt that the Lake Jackson Wilderness course would never get going I suggested the name to Fortune Bay and they liked it.  Naturally, a week later, the Federal judge dismissed the ten or more year old lawsuit filed by the Houston Audubon Society against the course and I was building two cousres called the Wilderness at the same time......

The greens are elevated because of the potential flood levels.  I wouldn't say the course is that heavily mounded, because it was hard to build up even higher around the greens.  there are exceptions, like the 15th or Dell hole simulation (on a par 5).  It did find the lower end of the GD best new rankings, and some in Houston seem to like it, even if its kind of far away from things.

One of my earliest threads here was one asking if gca's named their courses.  As it happens, the Wilderni (nesses?) and the Quarry are the only three courses that have ever followed a name suggestion I made.......

[Jay Flemma]

Hey Jeff, yeah my geography missed there, but is 24 miles, even on back roads all that bad?  It still should be doable as long as I'm at my desk in the media tent working by 10:30 a.m. Tuesday of the tournament.  I land in MSP early Fri and I'll have my friend meet me at the 'port and she and I will caravan up to play Big Fish Fri, then GR/Wilderness Sat/Sun.  Julie actually hits quite a good ball, and she's 28 and athletic and LOVES to talk sports, so she's stalwart company on the golf course.

I heard Mike Mosely and Brother William and others (Joel Z?), will be up for the tournament as well so maybe we can get a couple of foursomes or more.  Hey Mose, where are you?  Wish Terri, Wills, and Stevie (who we call Stewie, can you guess why?), a Merry Christmas.

One last thing.  I also always play Thurs a.m. of the tournament.  Where is there to play near Hazeltine that I shouldn't miss, but close anough so I'll be at my desk working at 1-1:30?

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