[Steve_ Shaffer]

He really liked it. A lot.:

www.golf.com/golf/courses_travel/article/0,28136,1866557,00.html

[Mike_Cirba]

Steve,

It sounds really good and I'm more interested than ever to play there.

However, if we ever do accomplish a restoration of Cobb's Creek and someone writes that they want to host a US Open there and then compares it to Torrey Pines without cliffs and views, I think I'll jump off the 10th tee into City Line Avenue traffic.   

[Adam_Messix]

Was there an architect involved in the work at Papago and if so, who was it?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The person in charge of the work at Papago was Billy Fuller, a former superintendent of a famous course located in Augusta, GA.

[Adam_Messix]

Steve--

Thanks.  Billy Fuller is a very talented individual and I'll have to go see it this winter.

[Adam Clayman]

From earlier articles all that was needed was the opening of sight lines.

How many US courses could improve themselves with a little pruning? A lot!

Westy Winds just cut down 14 trees and it's already a different looking place. 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

From www.billyfuller.com

[Matt_Ward]

Love the headline that Papago "is worthy of a US Open."

I have not played the "new & improved" Papago but when people leap off buildings with such a pronouncement it's time for a bit more skepticism.

I love the quote from the article -- don't know if it's an endorsement or not ... "Picture the Torrey Pines South Course without the ocean or the dramatic cliffs. OK, you can't. But if you could, that's Papago."

Van Sickle says he "wont bore you" with any holes accounts but it's just a very general and detail-less account. What people need to realize that making "improvements" from what was there is a wonderful thing -- but assuming that such "improvements' now elevated it to such a high level of distinction is quite another matter. I'd still like to hear from someone who can apply a bit more details and leave the fawning on the sidelines.

[Tom Yost]

US Open? That's a joke right?

Some comments on the photos:




I was hoping they would have used Forrest's idea to get rid of the trees on the inside of the dog leg and use the arroyo left of the hole as a natural hazard to give a risk/reward tee shot instead of forcing play to the right with the trees.




It really pains me to see dead trees STILL lining the fairways   

[Adam Clayman]

Torrey proved a us open can be held anywhere. 

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

That tree isn't dead..not dead I tell you, he's, he's restin'! Remarkable tree, the Norwegian Blue, idn'it Squire?...ay? Beautiful plumage!

Ahh..now you've gone and stunned 'im!   

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Yost,

The point you make about trees along the left of the second hole actually serving as a "double penalty" in conjunction with the existing beautiful natural feature of the arroyo, which then causes everyone to play away from it instead of challenging that side is spot on.

In a way, it reminds me of the fairway bunkers that were "restored" to the left side of Merion #5.   In effect, they are not only visually out of place but they also serve functionally to prevent balls from running into the natural creekbed down that side and also subliminally and unfortunately push golfers out to the right rather than have them strategically challenge the left side attempting for what should be an obvious potential advantage in terms of both length and angle of approach.

[Rob Rigg]

Seems like a pretty weak article IMO.

No substance at all - two par 5s that dogleg to the right starting the 9s - big whoop, thanks for the super intense details???

I have never been to the course before or after, but seriously - a US Open?

Say what you want about Chambers but it is spectacular and a different "type" of course than the norm in the US. Torrey Pines didn't blow me away from the visuals but the Pacific does add something. TP without the ocean? No bid - and apparently that is what Papago is.

The pictures do not look that interesting at all. Because a course in AZ has grass does not mean it should host the Open.

Would be interesting to get some commentary from members of the GCA crowd with AZ experience of the before and after.

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

Keep in mind, the drama of a US Open is often the major story line -- not the course.

Ask yourself this -- what had more drama -- the US Open at Oakmont when Angel won -- or the US Open the following year at Torrey when Tiger won?

The answer is self evident.

I don't care for nondescript courses like Torrey but it's place in golf history is secured with the epic 91st hole storyline that was created there.

Not every US Open is a classic one -- it's doubtful the US Open will head to AZ anytime soon given the penchant for a finish on Father's Day and the thermo temps experienced in the Valley there.

[Forrest Richardson]

I still have not been able to get to the course — maybe I am avoiding it 

As for the trees, it seems a shame that there was not more emphasis placed on removal and replacement. I suspect budget played a role in this. Maybe there are plans to continue removal. Some trees did get removed, but it is odd that there are still flanked fairways where desert once provided the broken ground edge and interest. Papago needs a transformation from mostly non-native species of trees to native varieties — palo verde, mesquite and especially the giant saguaro cactus that once graced the entire Papapo park land.

Original aerials had very few trees. Jack Snyder (who oversaw construction for Bell) probably would have planted some, as that was the thing to do in the 1960s Phoenix Valley, but there was not any budget left over after the construction work. I am not sure Bell specified for any tree planting — trees or no trees. At the time he was very busy and by all accounts only showed up here a handful of times.

What is known is that the original Papago was a celebration of the desert with native areas everywhere deployed as hazards. Whether trees were the right thing to do or not back then, my feeling is that they are way overdone on the modern course. Desert is the emphasis, and should be.

The routing is very loose with native desert between holes in every instance. Soon after it opened the City Parks Dept. (God bless them) planted thousands of trees of such varied variety that it would consume several pages. Mulberry was among the odd choices. The Aleppo pine seems also to be a favorite. Most of these within Phoenix — nearly all of which were planted in the 1960s and 70s — are coming to the end of their lives.

Norwegian Blue? Never saw that there...

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here's another favorable article:

www.travelgolf.com/departments/coursereviews/arizona/phoenix/papago-golf-course-phoenix-arizona-9326.htm

[Wayne_Freedman]

I played Papagpo with GVS on that same day and in that same event.

Later, the line we heard most from other players was. "Not bad for a muni, " which does not give this project enough credit.
It's not bad, period. In fact, Papago is quite fun and a relatively good value compared with other courses in the area.  But, if GVS thinks this course is US Open Worthy, he's been smoking too much hemp.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

GVS states in the article:

"Like I said, it's a crazy idea as long as the Open is married to its traditional mid-June date. I bring it up only as a way to emphasize my enthusiasm for Papago. Owned by the city of Phoenix, it's one of the country's great underrated public tracks."

That's a long way from saying that it will or could host an Open. More likely, it will again host a Publinx, men's or women's.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve --

Here is the title of the article by GVS ...

"Papago Golf Course in Phoenix is worthy of a U.S. Open"

I let you draw your own conclusions on the intent of the article.

Yes, GVS did qualify what the title says but the point of the piece was to elevate the place to such a level making it worthy of being mentioned along the lines of Bethpage Black or Harding Park or even Torrey Pines.

[Ryan Farrow]

I must say the pictures Tom took from the architects website are pretty bad. There are some more interesting/better pictures on the Papago website.   http://www.papagogolfcourse.net/tour.html

Forrest, I couldn't agree with you more about the trees, especially when you have the Phoenix botanical gardens next door. To me, that is the biggest failure of the work there. And with a price tag of 6-7 million dollars, I think they could have squeezed in a full scale tree removal and re-veg of native areas. I just don't think  the AGA wanted to remove the trees, because..... ahhh..... they don't know jack about golf course design, or maintenance, or aesthetics, or horticulture  or...... anything. They probably thought the course was always a parkland style for all I know.

[Forrest Richardson]

It may have had more to do with budget...and public outcry. My approach was always to remove trees, but to also leave some stands of what had become the parkland trademark of Papago. For example, I had little issue with the mature eucalyptus between 1 and 10, but I detested all the non-native trees left of 2 and all along 3, 4 and most of 5. I believe our work set aside $250,000 for native trees to "replace" those cut down because we did not want them, or they were ready to go see the great tree-god in the sky.

I think the work they did became "hampered" by mother nature. Many trees probably would have remained had it not been for the summer storms if I had to guess.

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