[Paul Jones]

I just got finished reading the book.  What a great story.

I am sure this book has been discussed before...  I really enjoyed learning about Harvie Ward.

Paul

 

[Tom Huckaby]

I just got finished reading the book.  What a great story.

I am sure this book has been discussed before...  I really enjoyed learning about Harvie Ward.

Paul

 

LOL
Please someone with search capabilities find the threads for Paul...

Paul, believe it or not, a simple mention like this stirred up quite a bit of controversy.  Apparently the author played fast and loose with the facts in that book.  That is all I will say.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

To the rescue Tom,

This is the only one you really need to read Paul.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32284.0.html

The common theme seems to be "historical fiction"...or is that "hysterical fiction".

[Mike Benham]

Tom -

Paul doesn't say whether he believes the story or not, whether it is fiction or non-fiction.  

He enjoyed learning about Harvie Ward and I agree with him, I never knew he was such an accomplished golfer.

Mike

[Chuck Brown]

Yeah, I enjoyed the book, and the GCA thread, noting the historical inaccuracies, only added to my overall enjoyment of the story.

[Paul Jones]

Tom -

Paul doesn't say whether he believes the story or not, whether it is fiction or non-fiction.  

He enjoyed learning about Harvie Ward and I agree with him, I never knew he was such an accomplished golfer.

Mike

Thanks Mike.

I have read/learned about Hogan, Byron, Venturi, etc.. before but never Ward.  He was the one that I never heard or read anything about before and really enjoyed reading about his accomplishments and struggles in life.

Paul

[Paul Jones]

Tom,

I typed in The Match in the search and got 40 pages of articles :-)

I just got finished reading the book.  What a great story.

I am sure this book has been discussed before...  I really enjoyed learning about Harvie Ward.

Paul

 

LOL
Please someone with search capabilities find the threads for Paul...

Paul, believe it or not, a simple mention like this stirred up quite a bit of controversy.  Apparently the author played fast and loose with the facts in that book.  That is all I will say.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike:  of course I understood Paul took no position on the quality of the fiction.  Just be careful saying you enjoyed any part of this book...and don't say I didn't warn you....
 

[Rob Rigg]

Just got the book today - looking fwd to reading it.

I'll read the GCA commentary afterwards . . .

[Bob_Huntley]

Rob,

Do that and i'll point a few errors and omissions.

Bob

[Bill_McBride]

I guess the most amazing thing about "The Match" to me is the linkage from very early American golf to modern American golf - Eddie Lowery.

He was Francis Ouimet's caddy at Brookline in 1913 and he was Venturi and Ward's patron at Cypress Point in 1956.  Unbelievable.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Speaking of Venturi and E. Harvie Ward, Bob Silvestri died recently:

From SFGate.com:

Silvestri reflections: Bob Silvestri didn't play on the PGA Tour, so his name didn't really resonate beyond Northern California. But Silvestri, who died last month at 93, was one of the most decorated amateur players around in the 1950s and '60s, when the amateur game thrived.

He won the San Francisco City Championship three times (1952, '59 and '60) during its heyday, won the California amateur in '52 and teamed with pro Bud Ward to take the Bing Crosby pro-am competition at Pebble Beach in '60. Silvestri reached the S.F. City finals seven times, tangling with renowned foes such as Ken Venturi and Harvie Ward.

In 1950, a crowd of 10,000 saw Venturi, then 18, squeeze out a 1-up victory over Silvestri at Harding Park. Nine years later, more than 12,000 people traipsed around Harding to watch Silvestri - "chewing on an ever-present cigar," according to The Chronicle - earn a 1-up win over Ward.

"He was as easy to whip on the golf course as a swarm of yellow jackets - he had too many ways to sting you," Venturi once said of Silvestri.

Told this week of Silvestri's death, Venturi said, "Bob was one of the great amateurs, and San Francisco had some tremendous amateurs back then. If you were going to win the City, you better make sure you beat Bob. He was the man to beat."

Silvestri, a World War II veteran, grew up in Colma, attended Jefferson High and later spent 15 years running Cypress Hills, a nine-hole course in his hometown.

[TEPaul]

BobH:

You said on the other thread that some of the things Frost said about Coleman are incorrect. What is that about?

I ask because one of the most interesting things to me about that book was the parts about George Coleman. I say that because I saw him often enough but only ever in one place----Seminole. He was the president of Seminole for a time and he was an easy guy to talk to but to me he was just Mr. Coleman, the president of Seminole. In all those years I'd see him and talk to him I never knew anything else about him and that's one of the reasons this book was such a revelation to me. So, again, what did Frost get wrong about George Coleman?

Also, Bob, aren't you the guy who knew about Alan Ryan (and Gracie), the Seminole president that preceded George Coleman?

[TEPaul]

Speaking of Harvie Ward----we should've gotten Philly Inquirer sports reporter Joe Logan who was here at the barn on Wednesday evening last to talk about Harvie Ward. Harvie came from the small North Carolina town of Tarboro NC, as did Joe Logan.

[Bob_Huntley]

BobH:

You said on the other thread that some of the things Frost said about Coleman are incorrect. What is that about?

I ask because one of the most interesting things to me about that book was the parts about George Coleman. I say that because I saw him often enough but only ever in one place----Seminole. He was the president of Seminole for a time and he was an easy guy to talk to but to me he was just Mr. Coleman, the president of Seminole. In all those years I'd see him and talk to him I never knew anything else about him and that's one of the reasons this book was such a revelation to me. So, again, what did Frost get wrong about George Coleman?

Also, Bob, aren't you the guy who knew about Alan Ryan (and Gracie), the Seminole president that preceded George Coleman?

Tom,

I know nothing about Alan Ryan.

In the long discourse on the book carried here some months ago, I mentioned a couple of things about George Coleman that were fiction. I tell you what, at 9.00am today I am playing with Coleman's son -in-law at Cypress and if you have any specific questions I'll put them to him.

Most of the stuff on Coleman I got from his daughter Sara who winters here in Pebble Beach. The rest of the stuff was from conversations with Eddie Lowery who was a friend, client and my sponsor at the R&A. Also, I played with Harvie Ward just once at CPC in a game against Jack Westland and Art Bell in about 1970/71, he did not have much to say about it at the time.  You could say that my sources  were genuine.

Bob

[TEPaul]

"In the long discourse on the book carried here some months ago, I mentioned a couple of things about George Coleman that were fiction. I tell you what, at 9.00am today I am playing with Coleman's son -in-law at Cypress and if you have any specific questions I'll put them to him."

Bob:

Thanks for that offer. It's 12:30 here now so you should probably be on about the second hole by now. I'm not questioning anything that book said about Coleman because I never knew anything about him in the first place other than the fact that I saw him so often at Seminole and that he was the president for a few years. But obviously you know a lot about him and I was just wondering what you think the Frost book got wrong about him.

Also, frankly that entire match and most everything about it was complete news to me until I read that book. I also knew that Quimet's little caddie went out to California and did real well for himself in the automobile business but that's all I knew. I had no idea it was he who was so involved with Venturi and Ward; I had no idea he was actually on the board of the USGA and I sure had no idea that he was basically responsible for Ward's amateur status problems. Not that Ward shouldn't have known, I guess, but he might have thought if this kind of thing could happen with a guy who was on the board of the USGA it must be legit.

Amateur status is sort of a grayish area anyway. I know as I ran a committee here that had that area as one of its responsibilities. I only had a few problems in my time and every time whatever the issue or question was or with I just got them to go right to the USGA and get it out on the table. Most of the time that resolved the issue before anything got messy and I never had anyone around here or come through this region who had his amateur status removed unwillingly.

[Kalen Braley]

I think the over-riding problem to the book is how can any of it be trusted with all of the embellishments that are common place?

Just seems difficult to trust any information due to the credibility problem the book has....

[Bob_Huntley]

Tom,

Here is someting from a year or so ago and the from August.

Quote from: Bob_Huntley on August 11, 2008, 07:26:02 pm
Between watching the Olympics and the PGA Championship I re-read Mark Frost's  'The Match."

I must say that it was a jolly good read but I closed the covers thinking that he is one sloppy writer.

Some the the irritants to me were his description of Hogan looking like a middleweight at 145lbs...when 160lbs was the limit for that particular class. He claims that Hogan holds the course record at Cypress, with a 63. If he thinks that conceded putts in a match play event constitutes a record, then his golfing knowledge is sadly lacking.

On page 31 he writes "that Coleman never owned his own mansion in Monterey but rented a New England Style cottage in the hills above Pebble Beach." I wrote to George Coleman's daughter in Venice and her letter below disputes that and also that Hogan did not stay with Crosby.

"Hello Bob,
 
No, we owned a house on the corner next to the Lodge. It is the  Cottage
which is for sale now. Mother and Daddy rented before the war, but after  the war
they bought the house and never rented again They always rented the old  Morse
house which isn't there any more. Not everything in the book is right.  Hogan
never stayed with Crosby. I can't say the house they  bought was  a mansion.
They kept building on.
 
All the best to you and your wife,
 
Sarah"

Back in 1970/71 I was invited to play in a fourball match at Cypress by Jack Westland. He would partner Art Bell and I would play with Harvie Ward. Harvie teased Bell by never conceding him a putt and causing him untold anguish as by that time Bell was an awful putter. We won the match and had a drink afterward and Ward  mentioned the match with no great appreciation that it had changed the game forever. He was still using the same rusty old putter and said " I may change wives but never this."

He was as good as I have seen.

Bob


Tom you  were right about Lowery, he did no favors for Harvie in transgressing the amateur code but Harvie always swore that he did sell cars and did a good job at it as well.

Bob

[CJ Carder]

I just finished the book as well and while I'm disappointed that much of the "golfing story" seems to be embellished, that really doesn't destroy my enjoyment of the book any.  Like Paul mentioned at the start, and Tom then alluded to later, I really enjoyed learning more about Harvie Ward and also all the connections between the group of characters like George Coleman, Eddie Lowery, etc. 

To me, nowhere was that fascination more depicted than in the afterward, describing the founding of the Del Monte facility and subsequently Pebble Beach, Cypress Point, Pasatiempo, and their connections to and with other famous areas of the game like Shinnecock and Augusta.

[Dan King]

Who knew golf fans were all this gullible, but how else to explain the success of Mark Frost. I'm guessing he knew when he decided to become a golf "writer."

I'm writing a book about the time Ben Hogan came to Southern California to give young Tiger Woods some hints. Y'all are going to be fascinated by the round they played together at Trump National and the amazing dialog. I was Ben's caddy, but he asked me not to report on the match until he had been dead a dozen years. Next summer marks 12 years so I'll be releasing my book.

I'm sure you suckers.... I mean readers will all want to pre-order.

Cheers,
Dan King

Fame is proof that people are gullible.
 --Ralph Waldo Emerson

[Rob Rigg]

I just finished the book, read through the link posted above, and now I'm pretty pissed off.

This story was good enough to stand on its own, there was no need for embellishment or crappy research, and having finished it I am now in the predicament of trying to figure out what is accurate and what is not.

If this was coined "historical fiction" which is a genre I enjoy reading, it would not be a big deal.

That being said, hopefully the depiction of CPC was fairly accurate because it made me want to see it more than ever.

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