[Jon Wiggett]

Scott was talking about using sand not just on greens he spoke of approaches and fairways as well. I got from his statement he was concerned with creating a sand layer and having the soil below the layer drawing the nutrients and moisture down. He was also concerned with the heating of the sand.

I like the use of sand for many reasons and agree with Scott that a layer is undesirable however using sand and incorporating it into the profile is a sound practice.

At TOC the use of sand pure sand over decades has proved very beneficial, both for turf health and the architecture.

Would TOC be held in such high regard without decades of topdressing, the greens, surrounds and approaches would not have the character or accept the ground game without it. Nor wold the surfaces be raised as much.

MR

Just read the post you made while I was typing, and yes we agree there is no single solution bugs in a bottle or any single remedy.

Micheal,

I think you wil find that TOC uses locally sourced sand and also the fact that it is on top of quite a lot of similar sand makes a big difference. What Scott was warning about was creating a layer different to the underlying soil.

Just about everything Scott talked about is what many greenkeepers in GB&I have always done. I was also amused about his mentioning of the fact that alot of the education was influenced to the benifit of the chemical companies and not for the good of the turf or the golfer. It was also interesting that Scott said he had been told to tone it down by people who were looking after the interests of the big corperations, I was beginning to think that I was the only one!

Will things change? Well first it will need certain bodies to change their building specs and maybe the tour being played on British Links style courses more often.

I have mentioned on other threads that a really good book on this type of maintenance is Jim Arthurs 'Practical Greenkeeping'

[Michael Rossi]

Jon

I realize that TOC is built on sand, what I was getting at is topdressing is a good thing for the turf and architecture.

Would TOC's green sites be as good with out the decades of piling on sand?

TEP

F&F is easier as Scott stated, he can leave the course and sleep at night. It is easier on the bottom line, the staff and most importantly the environment, what is not easy is the transition.

Like any addict getting of the drugs is the hard part, but once you are off them life is better.

The organic approach is going to be forced upon us, I feel you may be under estimating the supers out there. If they are given the time and the resources I would bet most of them would be able to accomplish the desired results. Those that can not should not be in the position they are.  However some areas are not going to be able to do Scott's program do to environmental conditions and the obligations they have. Examples are the courses that have to use up effluent water or with excessive rainfall or areas the temps do not get high enough. The approach on those sites would have a more synthetic dependence.

MR

[Jon Wiggett]

Micheal,

I don't think that Scott was against top dressing, just that it should be we the appropriate material.

Yes, you are correct, the organic approach will be forced on those who chose to ignore what is happening to the world. This is however a chance to improve playing conditions.

I can see your position on courses using effluent water though even here if you use less then there might be less need for flushing and of course using the right grasses will help.

I don't see your logic on areas of high rainfall, please explain. Your position on low temperatures is definitely incorrect, with low temperatures organic and traditional greenkeeping is the only way to go as seen in Island for example.

[Michael Rossi]

Jon

(referring to cool season turfgrasses)

Cool moist spring or fall like conditions the turf grows quickly, the microbial activity is present however they are not as active as they are at higher temperatures. The organic material (OM) builds up faster than the the microbes can break it down. When the temperature rises the plant slows down, the microbial populations increase and break down the OM. The microbes prefer it dryer rather than saturated. Areas with heavy annual rainfalls or temperatures that do not get high enough to slow the plant down (dormancy) and have the microbial populations become highly active will struggle with thatch accumulations and smooth nutrient release form the microbes breaking down the OM.

Look at how hot it is inside a pile of compost and how dry it is. Where does the most breakdown of OM occur on the outside of the pile or the inside, the temperature difference you said is incorrect.

What I thought I heard Scott say in the address was that he did not understand why supers use STRAIGHT sand for topdressing "it is tragic" (Greens, Fwys, Apps), and why are course being built with straight sand. I think Scott was OK with topdressing but using more soil and OM in the mix (biodressing), and does it less often. It starts at 2:30m in part 3. He says it is to hard to manage, in the short term it is but with time the OM builds up and it is the same end result. If the course is built with sand from tee to green it is very consistent and should be continue to be topdressed with as close to the native material as possible.

Scott also speaks of grain, I think that grain on a putting surface has business being there. The archie designs the strategy into the putting surface. the grain of the grass stopping the ball breaking as much as the design intended IMO is not appropriate.

Something else that struck me as I re listened was the statement about wearing synthetic materials, someone tell Tiger to loose his synthetic hat and put on a wool one some he can win the grand slam. I know nothing about this could someone explain the synthetic theory to me.

Still no answer from anyone weather TOC green sites would be as good without decades of piling on topdressing.

MR

[Michael Rossi]

Typo - left out the NO

Scott also speaks of grain, I think that grain on a putting surface has business being there. The archie designs the strategy into the putting surface. the grain of the grass stopping the ball breaking as much as the design intended IMO is not appropriate.

Grain has NO business on greens

[Kyle Harris]

Typo - left out the NO

Scott also speaks of grain, I think that grain on a putting surface has business being there. The archie designs the strategy into the putting surface. the grain of the grass stopping the ball breaking as much as the design intended IMO is not appropriate.

Grain has NO business on greens

I'm calling bull on this. It's the job of the architect to know his materials.

Da Vinci didn't paint with a bucket of Glidden.

[Michael Rossi]

Kyle

I thought archies put all out in front of you for you to see and play, (except the blind shot). As for putting the archie puts the contours to receive the shot and if you play to to correct position you should have the best chance at holing the putt. Unless you have played the grounds on several occasions to understand the grain you may not be rewarded perhaps even fooled.

The original turfgrasses that were used for putting surfaces did not produce grain, and were very upright in growth habit. It was not until after the industrial revolution did we get the prostrate growth habit turfs and we began our reliance upon the synthetic petroleum based fertilizers/chemicals.

Grain I prefer to feed to livestock such as bulls that create good organic material.

MR

[Michael Rossi]

Micheal,

I don't think that Scott was against top dressing, just that it should be we the appropriate material.

Yes, you are correct, the organic approach will be forced on those who chose to ignore what is happening to the world. This is however a chance to improve playing conditions.

I can see your position on courses using effluent water though even here if you use less then there might be less need for flushing and of course using the right grasses will help.

I don't see your logic on areas of high rainfall, please explain. Your position on low temperatures is definitely incorrect, with low temperatures organic and traditional greenkeeping is the only way to go as seen in Island for example.

Jon

I got this from a US chemical driven educational institution so it may be biased.

Interestingly, some soil bacteria (the anaerobes) do not even need air to grow and some are "poisoned" by exposure to oxygen. Generally, soil microbes grow best in soils of near neutral pH (7.0) having adequate supplies of inorganic nutrients (N and P, etc.), a balance of air- and water-filled pore space (about 50-60% of water holding capacity) and abundant organic substrates (carbon and energy sources). When any one of these parameter gets too far beyond the normal range some segment of the population will likely be stressed. For example, aerobic (oxygen requiring) bacteria will be at a disadvantage when a soil becomes waterlogged and available O2 is depleted through respiration of roots, microbes and soil animals. Conversely, anaerobic organisms may predominate leading to unique problems such as the formation of "black layer" caused, at least in part, by the anaerobic sulfate-reducing bacteria. Similarly, if soils become too acidic (down to pH 4 or 5) bacteria and actinomycetes usually decline and fungi assume a more dominant position. Except at cool and warm temperature extremes, the soil microbial population is usually not severely stressed. Most soil microbes grow best at temperatures between 15-30o Celsius (about 60 to 85oF) and their growth rates increase with increasing temperature up to a point.

MR

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