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Garland Bayley

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Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« on: December 20, 2008, 07:43:12 PM »
“And there are some holes on some golf courses that I can still walk myself through any time. A strikingly large high proportion of those are on Shiskine.”

The fact that I never played well on Shiskine and still love it beyond nearly all other courses is a testimony to how special it is. Andrew Greig, Preferred Lies

At one time there were 18 holes here, but few of the members ever wanted to play the last six out to the back of the clubhouse, so they were abandoned. Where Carradale leaves off in  breaking architectural rules, Shiskine goes one step further, with some of the oddest blind holes every encountered, and some ingenious contraptions for players to signal the next groups that they are done. The 3rd hole of 140 yards played blind over a rise into the face of a cliff with a precipitous drop to the left of the green, is one of the wildest I’ve ever seen. 2. [6/85] Tom Doak, The Confidential Guide
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

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Re: Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2008, 09:34:26 PM »
Garland:

What makes you think we are not both right?

Phil McDade

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Re: Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2008, 09:59:27 PM »
Garland:

It's a really neat course -- not just because it's so odd (which it is), but because it genuinely embodies several of the features that many here on GCA find admirable about golf courses:

-- It uses the lay of the land quite well, and does so despite where it takes the golfer on occasion.

-- It's full of the unexpected -- not just the odd blind shot here and there, but straight-up-a-hill to a green unseen blindness, and some great blind punchbowl greens.

-- It's fast and firm (or was when I played it, but the locals said that was the norm) and is subject to arbitrary things like wind and strange bounces.

-- At 3,000 yards and 12 holes (par 42), it's hardly taxing, but I've played 27-hole golf complexes with half the character of Shiskine.

-- It has a certain atmosphere about it -- truly isolated, on an island that's sort of hard to get to, and on the less populous side of the island. Along with Dunaverty not far away, it feels like you're playing an antique golf course -- something little changed over years and years.

The course opens conventionally, with a par 4 of @ 370 yds, but the beach runs along the entire left side of the hole, from tee to green. It's an unnerving tee shot right out of the gate. Staying too far to the right, away from the beach, will lead to a blind or semi-blind approach.

The 2nd, a similar-length par 4, doglegs gently to the left, with an approach over a burn to a green sitting in a depression.

The famous 3rd, the par 3 Crow's Nest, is straight uphill to a green unseen, framed by a massive rock formation. The 4th, nearly as famous and just as thrilling a hole, is from atop the cliff next to the Crow's Nest green, to a large green down below. The scenery up there, with the blue Atlantic a few steps beyond the green and the Kintrye Peninsula off in the distance, is truly remarkable. (Robert Kroeger, a Cincinnati dentist who wrote the definitive "Complete Guide to the Golf Courses of Scotland," was so taken by Shiskine that he used a photo of the 4th green, backed by the massive rock formation, for the cover of the book.)

The 5th is the third par 3 in a row, a longish, flat hole that runs alongside the beach entirely. Again, a beautiful setting. At 212 from the everyday yellow tees, it often plays straight into the wind.

The 6th is a very short par 4 with a great hidden, punchbowl green. The 7th is Shiskine's version of the Dell, a par 3 totally blind over a rock outcropping to a sunken green. The 8th and 9th are relatively conventional (by Shiskine's standards), but the 10th is a nice drop-shot par 3 to a well-bunkered green. The 11th, a longish par 3, features another wonderful hidden punchbowl green, with another hidden depression in front of the punchbowl green to catch unsuspecting timid shots. The home hole is a bit of a disappointment, a short par 3 over flat terrain with only a pot bunker fronting the green providing uncertainty about the shot.

As you can tell, I'm a big fan. On my whirlwind trip to Scotland about 10 years ago, it was one of the real highlights, and along with a few others (Machrihanish, Fraserburgh, Crail Balcomie, Traigh), one that really sticks out in my mind as emblamatic of how the Scots envisioned golf to be played. The stretch from holes 2-7 is about as quirky as you'll find anywhere, and comes with true links turf and conditions and great scenery. Worth a detour, in my book, for those who appreciate and seek out the odd and unusual and fun.






« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 11:06:01 AM by Phil McDade »

Garland Bayley

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Re: Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2008, 12:20:11 AM »
Garland:

What makes you think we are not both right?

Your rating of a 2 would suggest to me not to play it, whereas Andrew's statement would suggest to me not to miss it.

I'm sorry, but I am a hapless logician, and I can't help but feel one of you are wrong. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

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Re: Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2008, 12:24:30 AM »
So Phil, I take it you are saying it is not the run of the mill Ted Robinson executive course that one might consider giving a rating of 2 or 1 to.
;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean_A

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Re: Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2008, 04:50:42 AM »
Garland

I don't know who is right or wrong.  I certainly don't share Phil's enthusiasm for Shikine, but I do think its worth a look via the ferry route if one is going to play Machrihanish.  Not often mentioned is that the setting is one of the best in the game, indeed, Arran is a terrific island.

Ciao
« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 05:00:36 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

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Re: Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2008, 07:35:13 AM »
Garland:

I understand your fixation on the number, but except for the 2, my description of Shiskine won't be argued with much.  It just depends on whether that sort of golf is your cup of tea or not.  My argument would be that you would have to go to Scotland A LOT OF TIMES before you get around to the point where Shiskine is the best course you haven't played.

But, I suppose it's a bit like Painswick, which I'm very glad I didn't have to rate in the Guide.  I had great fun there, but I don't know how highly I could recommend it to others, because the average golfer would think it was nuts.

Phil McDade

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Re: Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2008, 11:05:32 AM »
I'm not saying I'd plan a trip across the ocean just to play Shiskine. But if your trip to Scotland takes you to the western/Ayrshire coast of Scotland, I do think it's worth a detour -- for those who appreciate the unusual, the radically different, and the fun.

Interestingly, I've talked to and corresponded with a number of golfers who have played nearby Royal Troon (I haven't, so take this comment with as many grains of salt as you like), and I've heard it described a number of ways (challenging, historic, regal, dull) but -- with the exception of a few holes, one notably -- rarely as fun.

As Tom says, Shiskine is a lot of fun. My intent in playing it, I'm pretty sure, was different than Tom's intent in rating it for a golf guide. That's fine by me -- on my lone trip over there, I had zero interest in playing the Troons of the world. That probably makes me an outlier in the world of Scottish golf visitors, but so is Shiskine.


Garland Bayley

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Re: Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2008, 11:33:14 AM »
Sounds like the guide needs more flexible rating. I see Tralee is rated 0-5. I don't know what that means. Perhaps Shiskine needs a rating 2 for standard golf play, 6 for fans of the unusual or extreme.

It sounds like Astoria here. A lot of golfers would probably rate it a 2. I've talked to a few of them including the 3 handicapper I played with there in October in the wind. I beat him by 13 strokes net. Others, like Tommy Naccers would give it at least a 6.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

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Re: Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2008, 11:40:43 AM »
Phil,

You mention hills, especially the Crow's Nest that you say is straight uphill. Is it a difficult walk? I suspect your description of straight uphill is an slight exaggeration as Andrew Grieg's book described playing it with an older local retiree.

Would two rounds be any more taxing than a standard 18?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

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Re: Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2008, 02:54:51 PM »
Garland:

I haven't played Astoria, but I'm pretty sure it's not a 2 on the Doak scale.

You are neglecting to factor in that Shiskine has only 12 holes, about half of them are par-3's, and half or more are blind holes.  That's not going to play big with most golfers ... or at least most Americans.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2008, 03:09:18 PM »
I doubt you would give Astoria a 2, but the two guys I played with who complained about it, including the "climbs" ??? would give it a 2. I would note that their home course is an executive course by Ted Robinson that I am pretty sure 2 would be the appropriate rating for.

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Phil McDade

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Re: Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2008, 05:55:43 PM »
Phil,

You mention hills, especially the Crow's Nest that you say is straight uphill. Is it a difficult walk? I suspect your description of straight uphill is an slight exaggeration as Andrew Grieg's book described playing it with an older local retiree.

Would two rounds be any more taxing than a standard 18?


Garland:

The Crow's Nest is sharply uphill -- it sits on a small plateau next to this huge rock outcropping. The only thing comparable I've played is the 1st at Traigh, a little nine-holer on the west coast of Scotland that some of the board have played. They have steps to help navigate. And the 4th is a shot in which club judgement is important, as you have to guage how much you should take off for the sharply downhill tee shot.

Still, Shiskine is not a hard walk -- I thought both Boat of Garten and Kingussie in the Highlands were much tougher walks -- constant up and down. Shiskine is a pleasant walk, with one strenuous walk uphill (but it's only about 100 yards uphill.)

Two rounds at Shiskine, which I did, was less strenuous than one 18-hole round at the Boat.


Garland Bayley

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Re: Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2008, 10:44:50 PM »
Sounds like 48 hole days at Siskine would be great fun.

How does the crow's nest compare to the one going in at The Lost Farm on the hill in the background?  ;D

"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Scott Macpherson

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Re: Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2008, 04:55:12 AM »
I've played Shiskine 4 times on two separate visits. It is not the type of course a visiting golfer should rush to on their first visit to Scotland. It is the type of adventure you make on your third visit to scotland when the idea of a Ferry trip and a couple of nights on an island sound like a fun break from rushing around the mainland.

As regards the course, I have had great fun their with my friends, but architecturally the routing is simple. Greens sit where they can- be it nestling into rocky outcrops or down by the sea. What makes Shiskine interesting is that this course is a clearly part of the evolution of modern golf course design – perhaps like the chimps are to the evolution of man..... :-X

Skiskine should be played by those interested in the history of golf course design.

Rich Goodale

Re: Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2008, 05:01:11 AM »
Shiskine Blackwaterfoot is one of those courses that just does not fit the logarithmic 10 point Doak scale.  In Michelin terms it is securely in the Guide, with a Bib Gourmand citation.  No stars, but as Scott says, worthy of a visit by anybody interested in golf course design.  Over and above that--it is FUN!

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2008, 09:04:42 AM »
Maybe Shiskine should just get the * or ! on the Doak scale. I can see how it would be rated a 2 just as Painswick might be, equally they have their charm and in the eyes of some they may well be 8s.
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Andrew Mitchell

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Re: Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2008, 10:09:17 AM »
This is the third hole as seen from the tee.  You can just make out the marker post for the green (about a third of the way from the left between the two players)


A view of the green from behind


I've a few other pictures of Shiskine I can post if anyone is interested.

2014 to date: not actually played anywhere yet!
Still to come: Hollins Hall; Ripon City; Shipley; Perranporth; St Enodoc

Phil McDade

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Re: Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2008, 10:13:44 AM »

I've a few other pictures of Shiskine I can post if anyone is interested.


Andrew:

I'd love to see them; my pictures are of the film/pre-digital era, so I have trouble posting them.


Garland Bayley

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Re: Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2008, 11:27:43 AM »
Great Pictures Andrew,

I'd love to see the rest.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Phil McDade

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Re: Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2008, 12:57:18 PM »
Sounds like 48 hole days at Siskine would be great fun.

How does the crow's nest compare to the one going in at The Lost Farm on the hill in the background?  ;D



Garland:

Where's the green going on that one? On the shelf or on the very top of the hill? ;)

Andrew's photo gives a good sense of the uphill nature of the shot at the Crow's Nest. Like most pictures, it tends to flatten out features, and thus standing on the tee it feels more uphill than even depicted in his very good photo.

The tee for the 4th hole is directly on a line of the staircase on the left side of the photo. One of the cool features of the 4th is that you have to take into account the part of the rock formation that sticks out of the bottom left of the rock outcropping.

Andrew Mitchell

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Re: Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2008, 01:47:07 PM »
Phil & Garland

Happy to oblige.

1st - looking back towards the clubhouse down the 1st fairway


Tee shot on the 2nd


Blind approach to the 2nd green.  The hole is aptly named Twa' Burns, the second of which fronts the green.


Tee shot on the fourth down off the plateau on which the 3rd green is situated. Note the exposed 5th tee behind.  Not for the faint hearted in a strong breeze!


Looking back up the hill from the side of the 4th green to the tee.


5th - the third consecutive par 3 but so far we've had 128 yards uphill; 146 downhill; and now 243 yards across broken ground.


After a short par 4 with a blind drive we come to another par 3, with a blind shot played over a hill named the Himalayas with a burn behind the green.


View of the 7th green from the side


The drive on the 8th.  The green is in a hollow, another drivable par 4.


The par 5 9th.  Your blind second has to carry the burn in the valley and then climb the hill if you are to be on in two.  I had walked forward from the driving zone to check all was clear.


The par 3 10th, the green is on the left with the 1st green on the right and the first fairway extending back to the clubhouse.


The 11th is yet another par 3, a blind tee shot to a green built on a shelf.


Shiskine is great fun, indeed I nominated it on the recent thread for Rich Goodale's list of the 30 funkiest courses.  However, as others have said, it would be well down a list of must play courses unless you were en route to/from the West Coast to Machrahanish via the Arran ferries.


2014 to date: not actually played anywhere yet!
Still to come: Hollins Hall; Ripon City; Shipley; Perranporth; St Enodoc

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2008, 05:58:54 PM »
Thanks Andrew, from your tour I know I would love the chance to play there, with maybe 5 clubs, or even 3.

I would also vote for Greigs book.  While there's little you won't read elsewhere it’s a gentle stroll through some of the backwaters of golf in Scotland.  And he has a good eye.  Untll he put it in black and white I'd never registered how Orange the sand on the east coast is.

« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 06:01:21 PM by Tony_Muldoon »
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Ulrich Mayring

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Re: Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2008, 07:33:35 PM »
Can't see how this course is a 2. This is the explanation for the 2 rating:

Quote
Mediocre course with little architectural interest, but nothing really horrible. (Play it in a scramble and drink a lot of beer).

The pictures posted in this thread tell a different story. There is lots of architectural interest in that course. It is totally unique - an attribute that Doak does not even mandate for the 7 rating.

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

Andrew Mitchell

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Re: Shiskine, anyone play it? Who's right Andrew or Tom?
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2008, 04:17:32 AM »
Ulrich

I agree, I can't see it as a 2 either.  I suspect lots of golfers would hate it, too many blind shots and three consecutive par 3s on two seperate occasions.  However I think most people on this site would love it!

Tony

I also thoroughly enjoyed "Preferred Lies", and its descriptions of some of Scotland's lesser known but intriguing courses.  Greig's book was in my Christmas stocking last year.  I'm hoping that this year's stocking will include the new World Atlas of Golf ;D
2014 to date: not actually played anywhere yet!
Still to come: Hollins Hall; Ripon City; Shipley; Perranporth; St Enodoc

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