[TEPaul]

"TP,
Is Oakmont a great routing?  I don't know....have played it a couple of times but still don't know that answer....."


Just wait a second here, Michael Weissenheimer Young! You've played Oakmont a couple of times and you still don't know whether Oakmont's is a great routing or something less?

Why in the Hell don't you know the answer to that?? YOU are a professional architect, Palsy, YOU are supposed to know these kinds of things and YOU're supposed to know them INSTANTLY! If you don't know the answer, how in the world are we, us nonprofessinal "Know-nothings", supposed to EVER know the answer to that??

I think Oakmont's is a great routing so what am I supposed to do now----wait until you finally decide whether it is or isn't before I can be sure??  

You professional architects are beginning drive me NUTS-----you're beginning to turn me into some kind of Skit...Schiiis....Suuhhuh....Ssszzz.....Oh Shit.....Blaahh....Whaaa.........Woof, WHOOF..............ARCHITECTURAL SCHIZOPHRENIC!!!!

[Mike_Young]

"TP,
Is Oakmont a great routing?  I don't know....have played it a couple of times but still don't know that answer....."


Just wait a second here, Michael Weissenheimer Young! You've played Oakmont a couple of times and you still don't know whether Oakmont's is a great routing or something less?

Why in the Hell don't you know the answer to that?? YOU are a professional architect, Palsy, YOU are supposed to know these kinds of things and YOU're supposed to know them INSTANTLY! If you don't know the answer, how in the world are we, us nonprofessinal "Know-nothings", supposed to EVER know the answer to that??

I think Oakmont's is a great routing so what am I supposed to do now----wait until you finally decide whether it is or isn't before I can be sure??  

You professional architects are beginning drive me NUTS-----you're beginning to turn me into some kind of Skit...Schiiis....Suuhhuh....Ssszzz.....Oh Shit.....Blaahh....Whaaa.........Woof, WHOOF..............ARCHITECTURAL SCHIZOPHRENIC!!!!

I'll answer you later..got to go get some fried catfish, banana pudding and sweet tea.....skitzo....

[Randy Thompson]

Interesting thread, some great points have been made. I agree with Mike that most PGA players have a routing handed to them and they don' t really care as long as the contract is big and the money arrives on a timely basis.
A good routing is the base of a sucessful project and where most of the time should be spent. Variables are everywhere, starting with the developer or the owner and his understanding or the architects abiliity to sell or as I prefer to say, Educate the bloke! We are not as fortunate as our ansectors in that it is seldom the golf course will be a stand alone future porfitable busisness thus enters real estate and the precious value of every square foot dedicated to the overall busisness plan.
 Take 200 acres of swamp land with consistent vegatation and consistent water depths and we all become pretty good qualified routing architects. Other properties require several days or weeks or months and this is where the cream comes to the top. Most are not willing to spend a months or more time on site and will settle for something less then the maximizing the sites potential. Take a 1500 acre rolling sand dune site for example that I have spent fourteen days looking for such and I am still dizzy just thinking about it and know that I am not close. There are some basics that need to be followed and are bieng challenged day in and day out. The one hundred and fifty acres typcially classified as sufficient for eighteen holes is rising and some architects can now demand 600-800 acres with out interference. One hundred yard walks are bieng thrown out the window for better holes and walks of 250-300 if necessary. Starting with a par three or finishing with a par three is accepted by many if that is what the lay of the land tells you and you will finish with an overall better golfing experience. What is you have 16 perfect holes but the lay of the land to accquire this, results in holes one and two being par threes. Do you toss the said routing and settle for something less? Even after the perfect routing, you need a great shaper that once again maximizes the potential of the site and the a great superintendent that grow it in correctly and then an excellent landscape architect that once again maimizes the poetential of the site, a sufficinet maintenance budget to maintain it and improve it ect ect ect. So my conclusions...who cares, which is most important...the routing or the shaping....the fact of life is neither will be worth a shit if the entire formula is not put into place and excecuted correctly! In my opinion, the EGO hinders the entire process and when everybody understands this ia a joint or team effort the better chance of creating something special!
 

[TEPaul]

"I trust your judgement....  "


Oh come on, that's bullshit. You don't really trust my judgement at all----you're just saying that, nothing more.

You wanna know how I know that?

OK, maybe you don't want to know how I know that but I'm gonna tell you anyway.

I know that because I'm a Northern guy and you're a Southern guy and I just can't tell you how many times in my life I've been folded and spindled and hoodwonked (or is it hoodwanked?) by one of those Southern guys (and girls) who invariably smooth the way with something like; "I'm Just some dumb old Southern Boy, whatta I know?" when in fact most all of youse guys down there are smarter than about a dozen foxes and about half a dozen Lebanese businessmen all rolled into one.

[TEPaul]

"I'll answer you later..got to go get some fried catfish......"


Look at that! See what I mean? You have to go to some FRIED CATFISH, etc, etc. thing???

I don't believe that for a second. I think right now you're probably just stepping into some secret ultra sophisticated French restaurant in downtown Athens for some truffles and seared squab gently doused with a sauce that's been reduced off a $1,000 bottle of wine.

"Fried Catfish"...., My ASS!

[Charlie Goerges]

 



 

[TEPaul]

CharlieG:

That photograph is basically what nightmares are made of! 

[Charlie Goerges]

CharlieG:

That photograph is basically what nightmares are made of! 

I prefer to think of it as the gift that keeps on giving! 

I must say your humor in the face of adversity is admirable. I hope that if I am, someday, the subject of such "flattering" artwork, I'll be so good-natured.

[paul cowley]

....this is one of those threads that makes me drink rapidly.

THE most important part of creating a routing is understanding the area outside of it.

[Peter Pallotta]

Jeff, Ian - is the art and craft of routing as practiced by the old greats the same art and craft that's being practiced today, practically speaking?

Peter

[Peter Pallotta]

Sorry, please excuse the non sequitor - reading this thread on a blackberry or a train and missed about 30 posts after Ian's and Jeff's

[Mike_Young]

TP,
I am back....you were right I did not have catfish.....I had some country fried steak and some fried chicken with some fried cream corn, green beans, tomatoes, potato salad, sweet potato souffle with pecans, coconut cake, banana pudding, lemon pie and a few glasses of sweet tea.....
BUT you are wrong...I do trust you judgement.......why?  because you answered a question my mother used to ask me every day of my life growing up.....by actually walking the walk...

[TEPaul]

"TP,
I am back....you were right I did not have catfish.....I had some country fried steak and some fried chicken with some fried cream corn, green beans, tomatoes, potato salad, sweet potato souffle with pecans, coconut cake, banana pudding, lemon pie and a few glasses of sweet tea....."


MikeY:

Wow, that's a whole lot. Here's hoping you don't have a pretty good bout of indigestion today. 

Do you want to know what I had for dinner last night?

OK, I don't care if you don't because I'm a gonna tell you anyway. I had something like 37 1/2 pistachio nuts.

[Mike_Young]

"TP,
I am back....you were right I did not have catfish.....I had some country fried steak and some fried chicken with some fried cream corn, green beans, tomatoes, potato salad, sweet potato souffle with pecans, coconut cake, banana pudding, lemon pie and a few glasses of sweet tea....."


MikeY:

Wow, that's a whole lot. Here's hoping you don't have a pretty good bout of indigestion today. 

Do you want to know what I had for dinner last night?

OK, I don't care if you don't because I'm a gonna tell you anyway. I had something like 37 1/2 pistachio nuts.

Why would anyone eat pistachios?
Are you not going to ask me why I trust your judgement based on what my mother used to ask and what you have been able to do?

[Forrest Richardson]

To the question of which is more important; routing or shaping? I think the problem must associate time when arriving at the answer.

The well routed course will likely never undergo a routing change. This "anatomy" stays put and, if natural land was involved, many of the great features will remain.

On the other hand, shaping is subject to change. Not all of it, but much of it. Change by man, weather, greenkeepers and committees.

So, in the short term, shaping is extremely important and very likely what "wows" golfers much of the time. Routing is a more cloaked quality — and it rarely changes on any wholesale basis. I would say routing is more important for the long term.

Both are important.

[Jim Nugent]

CharlieG:

That photograph is basically what nightmares are made of! 

When I first saw it, I thought it was Dr. Strangelove. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Forrest,

Can you recommend any good books on the subject?

Peter,

Despite missing 30 posts, I will say that the experience and craft of routing hasn't changed a lot in essense.  It takes time, good maps, lots of site walks, and the experience and talent to do a good routing.  None of that has changed substantially.  I believe map making was well established as a craft, so we all had the basic maps to work from, although I suspect they are getting somewhat more accurate, so we may use more maps and fewer site walks.  But, the site walks are still essential!

I tell the story of how I used to letter routings, but went well beyond Z often enough to change to a numbering system.  In a recent presentation where I decided to do a routing to help sell the job, I labeled it "5 of X" for the presentation.  I wonder how Bendelow, or even Old Tom got routings done in a day or so.  Just by information at hand and time spent, I would have to think that on par, modern routings are better than some of the old ones.  But, the best courses of the old days have either been changed, or took more time initially.

As noted somewhere in this thread, finding the best routing (although there may be several nearly as good for any site) probably takes about the same amount of time and effort.  Its just best if that effort is put into it before any construction begins, rather than some of it coming after.

There are other changes over the years.  Someone will surely note environmental areas, but I think that about brings us back full circle.  The old guys probably avoided swamps because they couldn't build in them rather than because of regulations. Its only been a short period of time - say from 1950 on that it was economically feasible to build through wetlands, Lido and a few other minor examples excepted.  I think the earthmoving technology was probably capapble - look where railroads built for example - to deal with tough ground, its just that the budgets probably weren't there for a non profit venture.

If you look at Charlie's example of the par 3, it shows some subtle differences between old days and now.  That hill is an okay place for a green, providing the gca knows that he has the earthmoving capability of lowering the green into the hill rather than setting it right on top.  In the older days, that green might not have been sited quite so high, nor would it have been sited mid slope, if the slope was steep, where it probably would look better than sitting on top of that little knoll.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TePaul,

I don't want to get into the amateur/pro architect debate, but I do think you miss  a few points, that TD points out.  I think that the fact that your home town of Philly was the place where a half dozen passionate, wealthy men did take an interest in architecture and took on their own CC as a pet project sort of skews your view of the whole situation there.  Only a few clubs - Merion was one - actually were fortunate to have enough rich, passionate members availalble.  As you know, Gulph Mills wasn't designed by your great, great grandfather, although, I suspect he was writing letters to Ross daily, if the apple doesn't fall far from the tree!

The earliest professional gca's were hired by those clubs without in house time/passion, cities trying to do munis, or even the Spalding company or golf course builders to do really rudimentary layouts to get courses quickly built.  These were often Scottish pros who were presumed to know something of golf, but had to develop their talents for architecture the same as the ams did since the boom started quickly.

It is quite possible that the amateur gca's led the way briefly then, as the game developed in the States.  But even many of those Philly Ams went pro in a pretty big hurry - even if not all of them ever accepted a fee.

[TEPaul]

TePaul,
I don't want to get into the amateur/pro architect debate,"


JeffB:

I understand that, and I have for years now. I don't think many professional architects today want to get into that discussion or debate about those early "amateur/sportsmen" who did such great courses via taking so much time with them and expending so much effort on them. 

No, I don't think I'm missing the point or TomD's point. History shows us that the same "amateur/sportsman" mode happened in other regions and cities including Boston (Herbert Leeds and Myopia and even the original member creators of TCC), in New York ("amateur/sportsman" Dev Emmet and GCGC, and later C.B. Macdonald and Whigam with NGLA and others such as Piping Rock and Macdonald earlier in Chicago), in Pittsburgh early on with the Fowneses and Oakmont etc. Those early "amateur/sportsmen" who created enduring and famous courses were not just a Philadelphia phenomenon, it's just that Philly had a few more of them who became famous than some of the other regions.

I'm not saying those "amateur/sportsman" were better than the professionals at that time it's just that the professional contingent was not ready early on to do things as comprehensively and over the amount of time those "amateurs" did. That would begin to come later (eg into the teens and particularly after WW1) with the professional contingent when they got better organized and began to devote themselves solely to the business of GCA and not just do it part time and on the run as they had earlier.

Obviously, that early professional contingent did a lot of work but always it seems pretty much on the run (and then generally back to their day jobs). It's pretty clear those clubs that used those famous "amateur/sportsmen" did not want to go that route for a variety of reasons, perhaps because they could see that the early professional contingent who were in and out so quickly weren't producing things that were very good and for obvious reasons----eg who could do something good in a day or two anyway, no matter who they were or how talented they were?

In my opinion, these were just the realities of that interesting time in the history of American architecture. And the reasons it would come to an end (those "amateur/sportsmen projects that became so famous) after about the end of WW1 says a whole lot too in the broad scheme of things).

[Jeff_Brauer]

TePaul,

Yes, they did go back to their day jobs, much like Ross at Pinehurst.  That basically says the profession wasn't really a profession at that time - it was a sideline for Scottish golf pros.  As such, they may not have been all that good to start.  I am not sure how many GBI courses were built in the period of the late 1800's that would give all those professionals emigrating to the USA real experience in golf design.  They probably got the jobs because they knew more about it than others, but really didn't know much about gca.  It actually makes sense that the great early courses were a result of the passion of the members, but still, only a few were really great. Most were probably terrible, which is why Ross, Thomas and a few others continued consulting.  There was a market for it, probably created by amateur designs about which they all write.

I gather that the pros got better and the ams pretty much faded away.  Its not so much that there was a distinction then as there is now.

[TEPaul]

"It actually makes sense that the great early courses were a result of the passion of the members, but still, only a few were really great. Most were probably terrible, which is why Ross, Thomas and a few others continued consulting."


Jeff:

I don't think there's any question about it. There had to be a good number of others basically by amateurs or people they hired who knew nothing of golf and architecture that were really terrible. Matter of fact, I suspect that most of the courses that were essentially just laid out by those peripatetic immigrant pros very rapidly (basically stick routings) were made really terrible by the features and such that were done on them by amateurs and other "know-nothings" long after those immigrant "layout" pros were far down the road and onto other quick layout jobs.

I'm pretty sure in that early era those early pros were essentially just basic routers. It's pretty true to say they did not stay around for any kind of construction which clearly takes more than a few days or a week or so to do. Those early pros seemingly just did what they were paid to do which wasn't much in any case.

I think that's the reality of that early era and what we are finding from it seems to prove it. The deeper question, of course, is what would have happened if they were actually paid to stay around for months or even years? Did they generally have the raw talent or even the requisite education to do anything really good if they did have the opportunity and the time?

Guys like Bendelow or Findlay or Barker or perhaps even Ross himself seem to be good keys to answer that larger question.

[Carl Nichols]

Are there any amateur architects (or whatever phrase captures the idea of someone whose primary occupation isn't designing golf courses) around today that have done good/interesting work? The Donald? :--)

[TEPaul]

Carl:

I'm not aware of any around today who've been involved in a project like those early guys we mentioned who did not have a professional architect on board somehow.

There are some today who certainly get actively involved architecturally in their projects such as Mike Pascucci (Sebonac) Mark Parsinen (in his projects with Hanse in Scotland), perhaps Kiser to some extent (with Kidd, Doak, C&C at Bandon) and certainly Ken Bakst at Friar's Head (C&C).

But all of those guys are different from the classic "amateur/sportsmen" architects of that early era who designed and created such famous courses over time with not much more than their own foremen and crews without a professional onboard. Of course, Crump did bring in Colt for a week in 1913 but the project was underway and it would continue on with Crump overseeing it all for the next five years as well as after he was gone (that latter part did use Alison and then went with his ideas, and apparently Flynn to some extent as well as what they'd documented from Crump himself).

[Mike_Young]

Dear Mr. Paul,
My mother would always ask f I thought I was raised in a barn.....she is excited to know that I have a friend who actually lives such a life....

As to your absurd thoughts regarding amateur routings.
The old ams were no different than many of the green chairs today who are put in charge of an old course and many members think because these guys played in a couple of state tournaments that they know what they are doing with the course.  These guys are usually golf nuts...which was probably..or most certainly ...the case back then...But now all they have to do is find a professional to reinforce what they wish to do and it becomes the correct way.   
If we define professional as one who professes to have knowledge of a particular field to the extent that he can charge for such knowledge in a way that he can make a living at such.....then....we may not have as many professional architects as we think.....cause this year there will not be many routings done.....so maybe this is an amateur thing after all .
Also...a great routing on kettle/moraine type of land may not be a great routing on the similar terrain in clay  so we could argue great routings all day long.....just like preference for skinny women or big women....which leads me to this link that just hit today...thought it might be of help when you were doing amateur routings      http://www.badgolfer.com/departments/productreviews/golf-lingerie-mio-destino-9450.htm

[Lester George]

I'm going to agree with my colleagues.  Routing is the key.  A poor routing can not be overcome with good or even excellent shaping.  The routing is the important foundation for all great golf courses in my opinion. 

Lester

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