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Patrick Glynn

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Routing a Golf Course
« on: December 20, 2008, 03:42:51 PM »
I would never claim to understand all that goes through a golf architect’s mind when designing a golf course. I am interested, however, in the process of routing a course over a given parcel of land. There have been threads on here debating which is more important - the routing or the shaping. I found that topic a fascinating one - which would be better:

A course routed by an amateur and shaped by Doak/C&C
A course routed by Doak/C&C and shape by an amateur

I have been collecting titbits from other posts using the Search function and also just trolling through various threads. On course I constantly hear about as a masterful routing is Merion, and how from a reasonably bland site a masterful golf course managed to arise.
 It the routing on Pine Valley the key hole in the routing could be 5 considering how it links two sections of the course together. This totally passed me by when I played the course and I needed another poster the mention Doak's observation.

From my own experience, I was astounded by SFGC. I never felt such a feeling of "space" and freedom as I did while playing this great golf course. Yet, when you look at the overhead you realise there is not a whole lot of land to spare & in a way it is quite "cramped" Is this feeling largely due to chance, or AW Tillinghasts' genius?



« Last Edit: December 20, 2008, 03:48:00 PM by Patrick Glynn »

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Routing a Golf Course
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2008, 03:47:13 PM »
I think it's just due to the fairways being 50 yards wide!

Philippe Binette

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Re: Routing a Golf Course
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2008, 07:57:42 PM »
Which course would be better amateur routing or doak routing ???

I'll go for the amateur routing shaped by Doak... in both cases though, it will not produced great courses, but if you give freedom to move dirt, a Doak crew might fix the mistakes. That is in a short scheme vision.

If the amateur shapes the course, you'll probably ended up with bad greens, bunkers in the wrong spots etc..

Mike_Young

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Re: Routing a Golf Course
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2008, 09:31:26 PM »
Most Ross courses were routed by Ross and shaped by amateurs.....following basic drawings...... :)

"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

RJ_Daley

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Re: Routing a Golf Course
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2008, 10:04:39 PM »
Of course Mike that there have been several years past where the Ross routing and
amatuerish shaping have had time and much effort to fix the shaping mistakes.  Which course
that was routed by Ross, and shaped-constructed by local pavers or shapers was good right out of the box?  (if we can say with any certainty)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike_Young

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Re: Routing a Golf Course
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2008, 10:10:12 PM »
Of course Mike that there have been several years past where the Ross routing and
amatuerish shaping have had time and much effort to fix the shaping mistakes.  Which course
that was routed by Ross, and shaped-constructed by local pavers or shapers was good right out of the box?  (if we can say with any certainty)

RJ,
Agreed.....that is precisely why I think there is so much BS in this ODG stuff.....anything structure that will stand the test of time needs good bones.....you here talk of great routings...have you ever heard of great "shapings"?  No , because it doesn't matter without the routing.
Happy Holidays ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

RJ_Daley

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Re: Routing a Golf Course
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2008, 10:13:30 PM »
It also seems to me that the priority of routing VS shaping is completely dependent on the ground-terrain-soil-shape of development tract composition.  

You can ruin a great routing with lousy shaping.   You can mitigate at best a lousy routing with good shaping in rare circumstances.  But you can't save a poor routing on a poor piece of ground with great shaping, it seems to me.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Phil McDade

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Re: Routing a Golf Course
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2008, 10:14:17 PM »
Patrick:

"which would be better:

 course routed by an amateur and shaped by Doak/C&C
A course routed by Doak/C&C and shape by an amateur"

A great question.

A thousands times (for me) -- the latter. I'd like to think, after considerable study and time, I could get shaping, if given the opportunity as a true amateur at this stuff. I'm not sure my routing skills would even come close to what I've seen others do.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 10:27:52 AM by Phil McDade »

Mike_Young

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Re: Routing a Golf Course
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2008, 10:20:43 PM »
It also seems to me that the priority of routing VS shaping is completely dependent on the ground-terrain-soil-shape of development tract composition.  

You can ruin a great routing with lousy shaping.   You can mitigate at best a lousy routing with good shaping in rare circumstances.  But you can't save a poor routing on a poor piece of ground with great shaping, it seems to me.

Come on RJ...you can't ruin a great routing with shaping.....you might stifle it with poor strategy but all the poor shaping will do is keep it from being recognized until the shaping is fixed.....and yes you can fix the shaping but I dont think you can fix the routing..... ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Routing a Golf Course
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2008, 10:23:13 PM »
Phil, maybe it is a rightbrain leftbrain thing...  ::)

I would think that anyone with a love for golf, and has played golf with an eye towards GCA could go out on a great piece of land like say they have at Prairie Club in Valentine, and come up with a fairly good routing.  Since that sand and generally infinite frequency of contour is everywhere, you don't have to be so keen on the nuts and bolts of drainage and engineering technical know-how.  But, on a soil difficult and odd shaped tract of land, a router must wear many hats, including know the engineering drainage-soil side and what the shaper is capable of, let alone have good golf sense.  

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

RJ_Daley

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Re: Routing a Golf Course
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2008, 10:28:22 PM »
Mike, you mean a fellow can't take a dozer onto (insert greatest courses routed IYHO here) and totally screw it up, not from a vandalizm point of view, but just get overly gaudy with features and no real talent or technique to create goofy features? 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Routing a Golf Course
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2008, 10:52:32 PM »
Mike, you mean a fellow can't take a dozer onto (insert greatest courses routed IYHO here) and totally screw it up, not from a vandalizm point of view, but just get overly gaudy with features and no real talent or technique to create goofy features? 
Sure he can....it's been done for years...but it can be fixed....not so with a routing IMHO ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Ian Andrew

Re: Routing a Golf Course
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2008, 11:29:24 PM »
Patrick asked: which would be better?
A course routed by an amateur and shaped by Doak/C&C
A course routed by Doak/C&C and shape by an amateur


A course routed by an expert.

If it’s routed very well - then the shaping is usually only in the tees, greens and bunkers. There are enough great lay of the land layouts with minimal architecture that are still held in high regard to prove that point.

A lousy routing is very, very hard to hide even with skilled shapers. I don’t think even Tom’s crew can “fix” 90 degree doglegs, unnecessary forced carries, holes that fight grade, safety issues and climbs up or down excessive grades.

Peter Ferlicca

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Routing a Golf Course
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2008, 11:36:00 PM »
I agree, I think Coore and Doak are on another level when it comes to routing.  They may go down as the best two when it is all said and done.  So I would think you always take a routing from one of them.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Routing a Golf Course
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2008, 12:09:37 AM »
Ian has it right.  Take a good routing any time.  The rest can be simply changed if not right.

Routing and feature design/shaping are two different skills on the order of golf's long game and putting.  That said, while some gca's might be stronger or weaker at one or the other, I can't recall any decent architect being totally inept at one if great at the other.

That said, I think the best routers are really the best salesman, because they get the best peices of property.  But, I don't think I would judge a gca routing skills by their best properties or their worst (flat sites)  Perhaps the ones in the middle provide the best indication of how good a router they can be....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Routing a Golf Course
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2008, 12:10:43 AM »
BTW, SFGC seems to have some irrigation pressure problems on the back nine, judging by the tell tale patterned brown spots.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Routing a Golf Course
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2008, 07:15:42 AM »
All right since I'm the only one betting for the Doak shaping.. I'll explain myself.

Take a Doak routing, dig ponds and put moguls everywhere, built bad greens and ugly looking bunkers and a waterfall... it could be a bad course (a 0) or at most a 7 with some talent

Unless it's a very severe site, the amateur routing might not use every features of the site and unless there are some very stupid hole (110 degrees dogleg etc..) a Doak crew has a chance to recover, it won't be more than a 6 (but you have a guaranteed 4) and it will cost a lot of money to fix it


A ROUTING IS ONLY AS GOOD AS WHAT YOU DO WITH IT


Sean_A

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Re: Routing a Golf Course
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2008, 08:14:19 AM »
Its a no brainer.  I would take the Doak routing and figure a large chunk of my shaping is already finished because he used the features on hand so well.  Even if the course doesn't have a great finish (because its not finished), folks can muddle through this and eventually get it right.  Trying ti fix a routing problem seems far more problematical and expensive.

Ciao
« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 08:16:07 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Routing a Golf Course
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2008, 08:15:33 AM »
All right since I'm the only one betting for the Doak shaping.. I'll explain myself.

Take a Doak routing, dig ponds and put moguls everywhere, built bad greens and ugly looking bunkers and a waterfall... it could be a bad course (a 0) or at most a 7 with some talent

Unless it's a very severe site, the amateur routing might not use every features of the site and unless there are some very stupid hole (110 degrees dogleg etc..) a Doak crew has a chance to recover, it won't be more than a 6 (but you have a guaranteed 4) and it will cost a lot of money to fix it


A ROUTING IS ONLY AS GOOD AS WHAT YOU DO WITH IT




If we can agree to disagree, I will go 180 degrees with your thoughts.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Routing a Golf Course
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2008, 08:54:08 AM »
Philippe:

What if I did the routing and then you did the shaping, but you were only allowed to build 25 bunkers and no ponds?

I always say the two most important parts of golf course design are routing and greens shaping.  Everyone so far has described messing up the shaping by building too many hazards, but by far the most likely failure would be to build without checking grades, and wind up with greens that don't work because everything is at 4%.

I am not ready to give up my role in either phase of design ... but if I had to specialize and let others do the rest, I am betting my associates would want my help with the routings more than the shaping.

Patrick Glynn

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Re: Routing a Golf Course
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2008, 10:27:45 AM »
Thanks for all the responses - obviously the question is more to promote discussion than find a definitive answer.

One hole that stood out for me as SFGC was the 3rd - I had heard/read a lot about AWT's skill at bunkering a course and this was indeed my first AWT course. The 2nd hole plays through a valley (much like 8) and then the 3rd swings around and uses the same valley as a "hazard" in the sense that you do not want to go right off the tee! I played safe off the tee and just missed the fairway left but was left with an incredibly challenging 2nd shot and ended up making 5.

My question is whether its the routing of 3 that makes it a great par 4, or the fact the FW bunker dominates your vision and really influences your play.

Found a picture of the tee shot:

« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 10:49:44 AM by Patrick Glynn »

TEPaul

Re: Routing a Golf Course
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2008, 10:48:33 AM »
Patrick:

As always, these threads on the subject of routing and what I call the "desigining up" phase of course architecture (basic hole "concepts", balance and variety of types of holes (3s, 4s and 5s), bunker schemes and such, green types, contours etc--eg perhaps shaping) are always interesting and interesting to discuss.

But when one then throws another factor into that interesting discussion----eg amateurs vs professionals the subject gets a whole lot more complex, and yes, probably interesting too.

The fact is the perception has been promoted for many years that these kinds of things (routing and "designing up" a routing) are the purview ONLY of professional golf course architects! Is there any wonder really why this perception was generated and promoted, and yes, many years ago?  ;)

It gets silly, in my opinion, when the perception evolves to the point that only professionals can generate good routings and a good "designing up" phase and even sillier still when the perception is generated and promoted that no "amateur" could ever do such things!

The fact is, history very much denies this perception!

The final extent of the silliness is reached when one starts to consider that the only real difference between a professional architect and some who were considered to be "amateurs" was that the latter just never were paid or took pay for what they did.

But does that translate into the fact they did not know and understand what they were doing? Of course not. Does that translate into the fact that they had to basically have someone else (such as a professional) do most or even some of it for them? Of course not.

It's not as if some of the most famous of the so-called "amateur" architects (who produced some of the world's greatest courses and architecture) positively refused to take advice or help from others if they felt they needed it along the way but the point is they probably did as much or more than they have always been given credit for.

On the other hand, what was the real and truly identifiable difference between those really great and enduring courses and architecture off the palletes of the so-called "amateur" architects such as GCGC, Myopia, Oakmont, NGLA, Merion, Pine Valley or even the likes of Riviera and most all the rest of the great courses done by professional architects?

I think we will all find if we really do the research and ARE THEN honest with what we find and our interpretation of it, that the the real difference is the so-called "amateurs" in all cases took more time, and in most all cases a whole lot more time with their famous projects than most any professional ever did with one of his (with the possible exception of Ross and Pinehurst #2).

Again, I think it would be pretty hard for anyone to legitimately claim that "amateur" architects are as accomplished in all the things that go into golf course architecture as most all professionals are. But this does not and should not ever mean that some amateur architects who for whatever the reasons really do and certainly did have talent can not do what professionals do. That fact has been very clearly proven in the history and evolution of golf course architecture and for anyone to even attempt to deny it is historic inaccuracy and historic revisionism of the worst and most lamentable kind, in my humble opinion!  ;)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 10:59:56 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Routing a Golf Course
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2008, 11:16:57 AM »
PatrickG:

To go back to your initial post on this thread, both Merion and Pine Valley just may be the best examples extant of the details and specifics of an "amateur" architect vs a professional architect, and that just may be one of the primary reasons both have always been so talked about and discussed on this website.

You mention above that Pine Valley's #5 is a "link" between one part of the course and the other. I don't believe I would say something like that even though I think I know what you mean.

In my opinion, what Colt's recommendation with #5 did was to essentially get the PV routing to fall largely into place. Not entirely, mind you, because holes #12-14, at least, were never really settled upon as they are now for some years after Colt left for good.

#5 was certainly not Colt's only design contribution to Pine Valley but because of what I just said above it has never been any wonder to me why he has always been given so much credit for #5.

Routing a golf course really is something like doing a massive jigsaw puzzle with a fair difference being that you sort of get to make the pieces of that jigsaw puzzle (primarily in the routing process).  The real irony of routing is also that this (the above) gets or can get measurably more complex if the site is chock-full of interesting natural features!  ;)

On that kind of site (and Pine Valley is most definitely an example of that kind of site) the capacity to run into all kinds of routing glitches just happens to generally be far greater than if one is working on more open and bland property (where one can essentially make whatever one wants to make without the inherent limitations of natural obstacles and routing glitches borne out of natural site ramifications).

The above is not just some observation of mine----it has been confirmed to me and a number of times by none other than Bill Coore, who arguably is one of the best routers out there.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2008, 11:20:18 AM by TEPaul »

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Routing a Golf Course
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2008, 11:52:14 AM »
Of course, if we add some new rules, like the amount of bunkers, no ponds etc... then OK the routing with amateur shaping would be better...

but without that, if Tom or somebody just did a stick routing and we let the amateur do the rest without any guidance, you had more chance to end up with Walt Disney World than a good course...

I'd be curious to see what would happen.


As if I was to do the shaping... it would be like Yogi Berra said,
Nobody goes there, it's always full...



Philippe Binette

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Re: Routing a Golf Course
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2008, 11:54:36 AM »
Was Hugh Wilson an amateur or a professionnal architect at Merion???

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