Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?

[Scott Macpherson]

HI Stuart,

What's your background? Where do you live? We could well do with another pair of hands...

Re the routing, the site has noticeable slope. (see the masterplan at www.closehouse.co.uk/golf/golf-news ), and there is no way to do sets of triangular holes. Though we have done very to turn almost ever hole in a different direction from the previous hole. IMHO, good routings come when you first, get to know the site REALLY well, then start with the ideal formula (4 par 3's, 4 par 5's, two loops of nine etc etc) but let the art of GC design, and an understanding of good golf determine the final sequence of holes and journey of the adventure.

Our challenge now is the authenticity of the features and the strategy. It's a sizeable challenge!

scott

[Stuart Hallett]

Scott,
Thanks for the link, I'll have a look tomorrow.

"Authenticityof the features and the strategy. It's a sizeable challenge!"

I could not agree more !! Sweat, tears and some TLC may be required.

Sent you a message but don't see it in my outbox, did you get it ?

[Mark Pearce]

The Close House site ought to be a pretty good site, I'd have thought.  I've never played the existing course (but did play cricket a few times when it was tsill the University ground).  There are a number of excellent holes at Tyneside, however, and I imagine the Close House site to be similar but less extreme.  It's also close enough to the City that it should attract a lot of play, probably at the expense of Slaley Hall.  I look forward to it. 

The dates of the GCA NE get together are 20-22 June.

[Jonathan Davison]

Scott
Congratulations!
I have played Close House numerous times and know the site very well!!!
Visit Tyneside GC, it is very close to Close House, a Colt gem. I would agree also to visit Brancepeth Castle, not to far away!!!
Good Luck.

Stuart
This project sounds fun!! How did we miss out on this one? Right on my doorstep!

[Ally Mcintosh]

Master Plan looks really interesting Scott...

Can see a heavy use of Centreline bunkers (and hazards in general - trees on 16 & 17) giving multiple options... Not entirely sure Colt used that feature a lot but who cares - I love them...

You said that you'd pencilled in some diagonal cross-bunkers... can't see them - which hole were you thinking?...

Hole 6 looks cool - you really putting the green that close to the boundary fence?

Hole 7 looks like a really fantastic idea... tonnes of great looking holes in 2D anyway... quite excited by this course now myself...

Think I read somewhere that Colt wasn't a fan of bunkers at the back of greens - not sure how much truth is in that though...

[James Boon]

Scott,

Masterplan for Close House looks interesting. Please keep us posted on progress.

I haven’t played nearly as many Colt courses as I should, but I know I’ve played quite a few he was involved in in one way or another, but cant be certain which holes or features are true Colt. However, of some I can be a bit more certain of here are some favourite Colt holes that I’ve played:

Royal County Down’s par 3 4th and par 4 9th. All are great holes on that front nine but these are two which I seem to recall from Richard Latham’s book are new ones Colt designed.

Royal Portrush’s run of 4th, 5th and 6th. I differ slightly from Tom Dunne on this one as I really like the raised up green on the par 3 6th. 14th “Calamity” is also a great hole.

Burnham & Berrow – Though I’m a member here its been a while since I read the history book “Between the Church and the Lighthouse” so I can’t recall the full extent of Colt’s work. I’ll check the book over the weekend, but all of the par 3’s are great holes and I know the first is a Colt hole and I love this hole. A bunkerless mid length par 4 surrouned by rolling dunes all around.

Also, thanks for the link to Frank Pont’s website. Great pictures. A tour golf tour of Holland is now a must for me.

Mark Bourgeois, thanks for the Colt Guidelines, they make interesting reading! A few points that jumped out at me:

1912
7.    “…  If possible, the short holes can be divided between the odd and even numbers, so as to give the partners in a foursome a share of each”
Not something I imagine is high on the list of criteria for setting out a course, and not one I remember from Forrest Richardson’s book (correct me if I’m wrong) but an interesting idea if one wanted to create a sense of old character at a club?

11.   “It is impossible to give any definite rules on laying out a course, or to state what length it should be, as everything must depend upon the nature of the materials in each individual case…”
And yet here we are! In fact I seem to recall that in Richard Latham RCD book, he comes up with a similar list of Guidelines, which may also have been reproduced in the recent Colt book which I only got two days ago so haven’t read it all yet? I’ll have a look over the weekend and if its not too long, post that list also.

1906
2.   “Blind shots should be avoided wherever possible.  This more especially applies to blind approach shots and to blind short holes.”
The 9th at Royal County Down is a blind drive, and for me certainly one of Colt’s best holes? Though maybe the awesome view is what is winning me over?

Mark Pearce, Looking forward to the North East get together, please keep us posted.

Lastly, as well as the recent book “Creating Classics: The Golf Courses of Harry Colt”, the following website is also a good source of Colt information: http://www.coltassociation.co.uk/index.php

Cheers,

James

[Mark Pearce]

Visit Tyneside GC, it is very close to Close House, a Colt gem. I would agree also to visit Brancepeth Castle, not to far away!!!
 

I'd second the recommendation of Tyneside.  The new pro their Gary Vickers won a PGA award for donating a kidney to another pro.  I played with him in a pro-am this Summer at Bamburgh Castle and he was a delight to play with.

From a GCA point of view also worth noting that Willy Park Junior was the pro at Tyneside in 1880.

[Scott Macpherson]

Mark Pearce,

I like the romantic notion that at sometime while designing Tyneside (Just across the river from Close House) that Mr Colts eyes may have drifted upon our site. Who knows, maybe he even visited the Close House mansion house at some point?

Ally,

Nice to have you following this. The 6th will be a great, fun, downhill hole. We may shorten it up so it is drivable, but haven't decided yet. Yes, the green will site in the corner (with an existing stone wall behind it). Maybe just one bunker down by the green somewhere.

It is the 7th hole, (which plays uphill) where I think the cross bunkers will sit best. Probably 3 in the landing area.

Trees are an important part of the site. We are working closely to keep as many as possible. The 16th will have one in the fairway. At the moment we are taking our lead on how we might deal with that tree from what Colt did at Wentworth (west). The final outcome will be decided during construction. As regards the proposed 17th, the copse of trees near the 2nd landing area are an existing stand of Oaks and have historical importance to that field (known as 'West Park'). All the copse are in that field are a little worse for wear due to cattle that have grazed their for the years. We are looking to improve the stands.

We are also looking to use some open drainage trenches like Colt used at Wentworth, Swinley F, Sunningdale, Blackmoor etc. It feels like a faithful Colt feature that solves some drainage challenges while adding to the play strategy. Any thoughts?

scott

[Neil_Crafter]

Scott
Could you post the masterplan here at a larger scale so those of us interested can see things a bit easier - I need a scanning electron microscope to look at the masterplan on the website as its just so small. Thanks!
cheers Neil

ps, I like the idea of using open drains as they were a legitimate feature of courses of those times.

[Mark Pearce]

Neil,

I'm not Scott but are you looking at this page http://closehouse.co.uk/golf/golf-news?  Scroll down the page and you'll get the masterplan at a good scale.

[Neil_Crafter]

Mark
When I went to the link you included the masterplan was large and legible - the previous one I went to it was tiny. This one is nice and clear thanks.
Neil

[Ronald Montesano]

Colt has some terrific holes at Park Club near Buffalo, New York.  The club was worked on by Ian Andrew and he might be able to shed a bit more light on how they measure up.  They are certainly not as savage as the unkempt ones shown on this thread, but they certainly have some teeth.

[Scott Macpherson]

HI Neil,

Nothing strange happened to your computer during the two times you went to look at the master plan. It was increased in size on the Close House website. But to save people having to make that step. Here is the master plan as submitted.

An Open Question....

The proposed fifth hole is uphill and currently proposed without any bunkers. There is an existing stone wall crossing the fairway at right angles between the landing area and the green. I am interested in any suggestions about how contributors think Colt may have designed this hole? Fire away....

Scott

[James Boon]

Scott,

I mentioned in an earlier post the Colt principles that Richard Latham has derived in his books. They are also reproduced in the recent Creating Classics, The Golf Courses of Harry Colt, I'm sure you are familiar with these books but just in case:

- Two starting points near the clubhouse, two greensites near the clubhouse allowing for four lines of play, if the site permits this. If natural green sites do not exist then they should be artificially constructed.
- First hole should be long and easy
- Strong finishing hole very desirable.
- Make use of as many features as possible, including natural sites for greens.
- Added interest in the ground immediately before the green can be a ravine or a hill.
- Blind second shots can add variety: this should not always be dismissed.
- Ideal courses should be between 6,000 and 6,300 yards long. If land permits, build with a reverse in mind.
- Four short holes preferable.
- Variety of length on holes where golfers are required to use most clubs in the bag. A hole that can be hit by one long drive (230 – 300 yards) is often an interesting hole. Best type of green for this hole would be a plateau.
- Majority of holes between 380 – 450 yards with a few shorter ones around 330 yards.
- Variety of teeing grounds essential so that length of the hole can be altered depending on weather conditions.
- Longer holes should not be against the prevailing wind.
- Alter direction of holes wherever possible to break the monotony of wind direction.
- Avoid skirting the boundary on consecutive holes where possible. If this has to be the case then try and route the holes so the boundary tests hooks and slices. Perhaps test the slices out more.
- Steep hills should be played diagonally rather than straight up and down.
- If there is one dramatic feature, do not sacrifice several holes to make one great hole. The whole layout must be considered to make the most of it.
- Desirable to postpone the placement of some of the bunkers until the course is ready for play. Bunkers then placed after the run of the ball has been observed.
- Carries from the tee to be 110 yards maximum.
- Optional carries to the fairway are important.
- Placement of bunkers vital to test players of all standards.
- Some compulsory carries for second shots are important.
- Size and shape of putting green should be governed by the type of shot being played.
- Hazards should be difficult but not impossible to play from.
- Depth of bunkers should be in proportion to risk.

Regarding your 5th hole, I love the idea of keeping the stone wall in some way. Perhaps Colt would have removed the left half of the wall to give a safe route while keeping the right side so if you go for the green over the wall and miss hit your shot, the wall could come into play. Maybe similar to some of his diagonal bunkers 40 odd yards short of a green on his heathland courses?

Cheers,

James

[Mark Pearce]

I don't know whether the 6th at Muirfield is a Colt hole but there's a wall there, not across the fairway but on the inside of the dogleg at around driving distance, playing close to the inside of the dogleg increases the risk of the wall interfering with a second shot, or of the first shot striking it.  James' idea seems pretty good to me, though I might be tempted to reward the shot played close to the wall, but just far enough left, with a better angle to the green.

[Tony_Muldoon]

At my old club (Upminster) two of the Colt holes that survive were mid length Par 4's playing directly uphill.  Neither are classic holes but he used the hill and bunkers differently in both cases. 

on the 9th on the tee you can see 3 bunkers. He offered a wide fairway (to lull the golfer?), but when you reach your tee shot you could no longer see the bunker in front of the green.  As repeat play shows there is room to fly the bunker and, in summer, bounce the ball on to the green. The green also became blinder the nearer you got to that hill and bunker.  With a sharp R-L fall and a lower tier at the extreme left, you had an interesting blind second shot.  Today the club uses an extra tall flag to at least partially nullify this.











On the 14th again a wide fairway, but this time you could pretty much see the green.  It’s narrow and with a very pronounced fall from back to front, and you certainly didn’t want to be above the hole.  However with two bunkers at the front making it hard to judge where the pin is it put doubt in your mind.

Sorry no photos.

I say keep the wall as a distraction near the golfer on his second shot with a blind bunkerless green.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Taking a wild guess, I think Colt would have probably got rid of the wall...

With the small valley running down the right side of the fairway though, it could look and play quite interesting to have the wall remain on the right until it bleeds in to the ridge a few metres in to the fairway, possibly creating a semi-blind approach from the shorter right side... Could break the wall just before the fairway line on the left side to show the continuity as well... Might need some kicker banks to help with the aesthetic and safety elements...

as for using the open drains as features... sounds good... Although I would think that it is important to ensure that they are finished as features... so as they don't just look like drains that haven't been backfilled...

[Sean Walsh]

Ally I disagree. 

The first hole I thought of when reading Scott's description was the 11th on The Eden.  The only major difference I can see between the two holes is 11 has another ridge before the wall.  I believe this hole gives the best indication I have seen of what Colt might do with such a feature.

 
I think the only consideration in not using it is safety.  It would probably require earth stacked against the wall as with the Eden hole. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally I disagree. 

The first hole I thought of when reading Scott's description was the 11th on The Eden.  The only major difference I can see between the two holes is 11 has another ridge before the wall.  I believe this hole gives the best indication I have seen of what Colt might do with such a feature.

 
I think the only consideration in not using it is safety.  It would probably require earth stacked against the wall as with the Eden hole. 

I'm struggling to even recall the wall on the 11th on The Eden... I think I can picture the hole in my head but not the wall... It's quite close to a raised green site, isn't it?

You may be right Sean - As I said above, it was a wild guess...

But then again, The Eden was quite an early design and you never know - Colt may have got bolder as he went on... Or he may have got rid of 10 walls to that one and we just don't know about them...

A good recent example of walls being used is The Renaissance Club, earth used as kickers there for safety I presume...

[Marty Bonnar]

The Eden c. 1940. I hope this is big enough for the old field boundaries to be easily visible:



All over the place! Many of them still highly strategic today. Of course the 'New' Eden plays over some of the ground to the south of the curving railway line (now path) and has also lost the holes at the bottom right to the vitally important practice range...

Check out all of those exquisite diagonal hazards. Yummmmmm.

FBD.

[Ally Mcintosh]

I can see quite a few of those field boundaries on that photo Martin... I can recall the one on the eleventh now but not the others (at least not the others in the middle of holes - I do remember passing dykes from green to tee)... I must have been playing with my eyes closed that day...

However, can't see it as conclusive proof that "Harry Colt likes walls"

I like walls though and think it would be a shame to eradicate all trace of them in Scott's example... Hence my suggestion...

Another new course with a wall right across the fairway - Bruce Charlton's design at Skjoldenaesholm in Denmark...

[Scott Macpherson]

Ally,

Thanks for thinking about this.

To help, below is the view from the proposed tee. The direct line to the green is pretty much directly over the heads of the 3 men walking. You can see that it is uphill to the landing area, and that from the tee, the 5 foot high stone wall is blocking the view to where the proposed green will be. (The group of trees in the distance are left of the 7th FW)

There is the possibility that from the tee you will see the flag, but not the putting surface if we left the wall alone. However, by taking out a section of the wall out to the left, those who drive the ball to the centre (or left or centre) of the FW will get a full view of the green. That's the current thinking, but nothing is set in stone (excuse the pun )

Scott


PS- When you look at the photo, then the plan, it reminds me why the great courses are built on the ground and NOT from a plan. You only really get the feel of a site when you walk it, breathe it, see it.