Mtn Time Zone -- Best Private & Best Public ...

[Andy Troeger]

Alrighty, Sanctuary and Pradera.

Both courses have quite a few interesting holes, although I would argue Sanctuary has a couple more. At Sanctuary, the 1st is a great opener although its a little penal for a first tee shot with lots of opportunities for a lost ball right out of the gate. The 4th is another fun par five with definite risk/reward potential, the 8th is the original of one of my favorite Engh template greens, and the 9th with diagonal bunker really creates an interesting tee shot. On the back, I don't like the 11th, but the 12th is one of my favorites especially with the tee shot, and the 13th and 14th are solid as well. The 15th I like except for the bunker wrapping around the water. The 18th is a pretty decent finisher although somewhat typical in that its uphill. The course is very challenging, has good risk/reward opportunities early and often, is obviously very aesthetic, and has a high fun quotient. Its certainly not walkable.

Pradera has a lot of the same good qualities. I don't find the design quite as interesting as Sanctuary, but its by no means a huge gap. Its more playable than Sanctuary and Engh used some features that I haven't seen on his other courses. The 10th green is a nice change from the bowl shape (think bowl upside down somewhat). The 16th is a fun tee shot where I hit my all-time longest drive with a 30 mph helping wind (480 yards and I only outdrove a playing partner by about 30 yards). The split fairway 7th doesn't work as well as it could to me because the right fairway is so narrow and such a long carry that it doesn't make sense to try it in a stroke play situation to me. The gap with Sanctuary to me is the water holes at Pradera that remind me more of ho-hum Florida than Colorado--the 8th comes to mind. I remember water on the 9th but not much else, and the 18th is a decent finisher par five but not as good as Lakota Canyon or Tullymore in terms of risk/reward finishers.

I like both courses quite a bit--Sanctuary gets the nod but Pradera is well worth playing as well.

If we're eliminating courses outside the mountain time zone then Sand Hills is out too--I seem to remember it being in the original list.

[Andy Troeger]

Andy, you've talked some about both Cougar Canyon and Four Mile Ranch, and here you're ranking them pretty high. I'd really like more info on both! I had an opportunity to play down at FMR earlier this year around the same time you were there, but I couldn't make it. I'd love to hear more.

Kirk,
The following threads have some info on both courses. If you have anything we didn't cover below I can add more, but these will likely be more helpful than another recap.

Four Mile Ranch: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,36374.0.html

Cougar Canyon: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35890.0.html

[Kalen Braley]

Andy,

Hate to be a stickler, but Mullen NE is in the MST time zone.

I know Sand Hills is close by and west of Mullen, so that would put it in MST as well. 

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Unless I am seriously mistaken -- I believe Sand Hillls is located in the Mountain Time Zone.

In regards to your comments on the 7th at Pradera -- it's a daunting shot but it's not overly narrow -- there needs to be some risk with going that route given the easy second shot you would get in attaining that position. Is the shot unnerving when viewing it from the tee? No doubt. But that's to Engh's credit.

Quick other comment -- you say the 18th at Pradera is only "decent." You must have missed the death center-placed bunkers Engh provides and how the split fairway makes the hole a good deal more than you opined. Getting down the left side is far more challenging -- pull it and say adios to your ball -- push a shade to the right and the shot out of the bunker is not bargain. Even with a solid and well placed tee shot the 2nd is tough because of the angle of the green and the falloffs encountered. I agree the 18th at Lakota is a better hole but the gap between them is not that far apart in my mind.

One other note -- you failed to mention the long par-4 11th which is one of the best holes at Pradera -- also throw forward the two par-3's on the inner half - plus the uphill 15th with its extremely narrow and deep green. If you really analyze the details Engh provided with the Parker layout he further refined what he originated with Sanctuary. For that reason I see Pradera as the more complete design and test of golf. Appreciated your details even if we see it differently.

[Andy Troeger]

I didn't realize any of Nebraska was in the Mountain Time Zone...interesting to know. I haven't played it anyway so it won't change my list.

In any case, being a stickler since I was the one who originally suggested this thread to Matt--I intended it to be about MOUNTAIN states...so if were up to me Nevada is in and Nebraska is out. I could care less about what time it is where...but oh well   

Pradera has a lot of good holes, including the ones you mentioned. I like the 13th green as well, I think the par four you meant was the 14th as the 15th is a par three over water. There are three par threes on the back, do you like them all or were you forgetting one?

I like the 18th, just don't love it. You described it well.

[Adam Clayman]

Matt, Bayside grows on you, and the greens and short game interest are better than most.  Clearly there were some routing issues starting after #10. There's some really great stuff out there, but also some, that is just torture. They are finally operating in the black and I'm very happy for them. They have also added two very reasonably priced ($250) four plex cottages and have someone serious about running the F&B. If the Lake can fill up, the place will be an even  greater destination for all sorts of outdoor enthusiasts.

I don't keep lists, but I'm happy to chime in when I see something fishy from others. Thanksgiving Point inclusion shows just how weak the time zone really is as it relates to quality. I much preferred Redlands Mesa and Devils thumb to it. Even Jack's Summit had an some redeeming qualities.

Has anyone been down to Las Cruces cc? Dye's new one.

[Andy Troeger]

Has anyone been down to Las Cruces cc? Dye's new one.

I was in Las Cruces last month but got the impression it wasn't that close to being done when speaking to a couple members at Picacho Hills. Perhaps their information wasn't accurate.

There's supposed to be a new Nicklaus course at Ute Lake Ranch in far eastern New Mexico (20 miles north of I-40 near Logan, NM). Not sure how close that is to completion either.

[Adam Clayman]

Andy, I didn't get that impression at all. Give Alan Salter a call. He's the super there and I'd bet they are open.

20 miles north of 40 in easter NM? Has to be the worst weather regions I have ever personally witnessed. That area was always getting hammered.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

Yes, Cherry Hills did have the bones of a great course, but this fall I think we managed to put some teeth back into it as well.  The eighth hole was moved about fifty yards back, to make room to extend both the ninth and sixteenth into good long par-4's.  The par-5 fifth has had its old center-fairway bunker restored -- you can clear it as long as you hit one of your solid 285-yard-carry drives, but if you don't make it, it will turn the hole into a three-shotter.

Again, if you'd rather play Pradera, that's up to you.  I'm sure you are more welcome there anyway.

[Bart Bradley]

Bart, When did Pinon Hills get four tier greens? There was not a single one when I was last there.

Adam:

It has been nine years since I visited Pinion....but I can tell you the greens were tiered significantly with large drop-offs between tiers... they had multiple tiers (perhaps only 3) and the tiering was too extreme and this detracted from the course, in my opinion.

Thanks,

Bart

[Bart Bradley]

Matt,

Have you seen Inn of the Mountain Gods in Ruidoso?  I was there 9 years ago and thought that it was in the same league as some of your honorable mentions...

Anyone else?  Andy, did you get there this year?

Bart

[Adam Clayman]

Bart. Yes many greens have three tiers and I completely disagree about them taking away from the gc. They make the course. In reality they are no where as difficult as they look. In actuality they were and are some of the best modern greens built. Especially for that era.

The Inn of the mountain gods is a Ted Robinson design with little of note and lots to laugh at, like the goal posts on 17. While the back was better than the front nine, this style of golf has little place on any list that has the word "best" as criterion.

[Andy Troeger]

Adam,
Good to know regarding Las Cruces CC--I'll try to find out. Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong on this thread. I'm surprised they are building the course out east too, but it looks fairly interesting. Talk about isolated though--its a 3 hour drive from Albuquerque and not that close to Amarillo either. It will have to be good in that location to draw people out there--it's not like people will stumble across it otherwise. Its near Tucumcari, which isn't that big either.

Bart,
I didn't make it to Inn of the Mountain Gods this year. Going to see that one, Rainmakers, and Outlaw hopefully all in one shot next year. The tiering at Pinon Hills is pretty wild, I don't remember any greens with four tiers, but three wasn't that unusual. Most of them I liked although there were a couple that seemed odd (one of the par threes had a tier that looked impossible to find on the right side). I like them personally--he did some of that at Painted Dunes in El Paso too. Paa-Ko has less of it, but I still think the greens are much more interesting than others give them credit for.

Tom,
Sounds like I may have to try to see Cherry Hills again, it sounds like the changes might help the front nine, which was what kept it from being in my first tier when I played it originally.

[Kalen Braley]

I don't keep lists, but I'm happy to chime in when I see something fishy from others. Thanksgiving Point inclusion shows just how weak the time zone really is as it relates to quality. I much preferred Redlands Mesa and Devils thumb to it. Even Jack's Summit had an some redeeming qualities.

Adam,

I would agree as well that Redlands is a step above Thanksgiving Point.  Not to suggest that TP isn't good, just that Redlands is that much better.  I have Lakota Canyon and RM fairly close in my list, with LC slighty higher.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

Let me reiterate -- I have not been back to Cherry Hills since the work you mentioned was done. I do think your written impressions via CG was quite on target and frankly I was not overly impressed with what was there when I first played it. No doubt when it first opened and for many years thereafter it was the major domo for golf in and around the Denver area.

No doubt having had a few major championships -- most notably the '60 US Open helped burn its identity in the minds of many people.

Given the extra yardage you mentioned - it would make the holes you mentioned certainly play longer. But, Tom, keep this in mind -- Cherry Hills was extremely short for any player of moderate length to start with. The property is still the same property -- so-so parksland at best and as you correctly stated in CG -- would be lost if located in a more competitive environment like Philadelphia or even places like Columbus or Chicago.

I owe myself another look at what's happened there. I think it would behoove you to think a bit more on what I stated previously -- the modern bar for quality golf has risen dramatically since CG came out and the candidates being discussed herein have more going on for them than many might imagine. Old is not necessarily grand as it related to the game of golf played in 2008.

Adam:

I do like what Rock Phelps did with Devil's Thumb but it's limited in a few spots. Thanksgiving Point may not be the "classic" school lovers cup of tea but I give the Miller / Bates design duo a bit more credit. The layout is brawny and spread out to reflect the terrain it has. It's not as rough looking as a few other mountain time zone courses are but until the roster of other courses fills itself out I'd still recommend it as the top public course in the Beehive State.

Glad to hear about Bayside -- I think too many people were put off by the supposed "bad" back nine and I find that really hard to believe. If people think Wild Horse is miles beyond Bayside then I think there's too much credit for the width elements found in Gothenburg -- and less appreciated with the edgy and do-or-die risks you see at Bayside. The 11th there gets panned as being too demanding -- I see it as being a real challenge for those who want to push the pedal down to the max.

Bart:

I have played Inn of the Mtn Gods -- but unless the recent work has truly elevated the place SIGNIFICANTLY I always found the place to be way overrated -- no doubt wonderful scenery in and around Mescalero and a few holes of note but not worth a visit unless you are within 100-150 miles of the place. Arguably, it could be one of the best Ted Robinson designs but I don't know how that matters to many. Adam C and I don't often agree -- but we see it eye-to-eye on the course.

Again, I did hear they did a major upgrade to the facility -- but I don't know if that meant attention to the golf course or just the lodging and related elements.

Better to head to nearby Ruidoso and the golf course there -- The Links at Sierra Blanca -- hats off to architect and frequent poster here on GCA Jeff Bauer and to his sidekick former PGA Tour star Jim Colbert. Not long from the tips but sufficiently challenging and frankly much less on the hype meter.

Kalen:

You'll have to explain to me how Redlands is better than TP?

If you look at the portfolio of Engh courses -- Redlands doesn't begin to provide what you see with Lakota Canyon Ranch -- I mean it's not even night and day. Engh's evolution as an architect can be seen with each of his more recent courses -- at Redlands Mesa you see the sharp edges and excessive containment mounds by a number of the greens. Lakota has far less of it -- although it's still present -- you see even less of it with such a superb creation with Four Mile Ranch.

I'd be more than happy to pit Lakota against Redlands Mesa in any manner you or others would like. It's much further apart than you think, in my mind.

In the Beehive State -- I don't see any public course -- save for Sand Hollow which I have not played thus far -- being able to equal what TP provides. Let me also point out that Keith Foster did a fine job with Coral Canyon - also located in Hurricane, UT where Sand Hollow is located and is often undervalued.

[Doug Wright]

Maybe I missed it, but I'm quite surprised that the Broadmoor East Course isn't mentioned herein. It's certainly on my list, which I hope to compile for this thread later when time allows. Despite being a composite of Ross and RTJ, the course blends together very well, and has a fine blend of challenge and strategy IMO. Plus the greens are among the most difficult anywhere. It was always a fine course; the recent work there has moved it up in my rankings.

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

Mea culpa on my part.

Broadmoor East deserves consideration and was simply forgotten on my part. Is it worth a top ten for the entire mountain time zone? I'd like to see your list / comments and then weigh in accordingly.

Good call on bringing it to the attention of everyone.

[Greg Tallman]

I long for the day when I can open a thread and read differing opinions without the ever present condescending tones so prevelant here.

Truly amazing that during these troubled times we still have a my **** is bigger than yours back and forth over something as trivial as a damn golf course in a specific time zone.

That said I nominate The Ocean Course at Cabo del Sol 

[Andy Troeger]

I don't have Broadmoor East in my top ten for the area, but some of that I think is because of how they had it set up prior to the US Senior Open. All of the fairways were obviously narrowed and the rough was high to the point where the course was just a brutal championship test without any angles to speak of--I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if its better and more fun when set up normally. Or is that the set up all the time? It still would be very close to my top ten publics, just not quite there.

I like Redlands Mesa, but of the 7 Engh courses I've played I think its middle of the pack. The back nine has some interesting features, including the 14th over the rocks. The 13th is good but would be better without the bunkering around the water (same as 15 at Sanctuary). I like the 11th a lot too. Kalen loves the 17th, its certainly difficult but perhaps a little too much for me.

[Kalen Braley]

Andy,

Don't stop there on Redlands.

Both par 3s on the front 9 are very good.
Tee shot on #2 is tough but neat.
The 2nd shot into 4 is "exhilirating"
The entire 5 hole complete with Mick Jagger Green and well framed green complex
The wicked green on the 9th.
I concur with the 11th.
Don't forget 14, the entire hole.  Yes its quirky but a unique hole..loved it.
the 2nd shot into 16 was very good too.
Already mentioned 17.
And 18 was a decent finisher.

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen, et al:

Guys, you're missing the point on this thread.

It's not whether a course is good or very good.

It's whether it reaches the top of the pack for an ENTIRE TIME ZONE.

Big difference.

I don't doubt Redlands Mesa is worth a play -- is it the best of what Engh has done on the public side? The short answer for me is no. And, I've played no less than a dozen Engh courses. Lakota Canyon is easily better the Redlands Mesa -- more details and more hole variety. You then have a place like Four Mile Ranch which extends further the ongoing progression of what Engh is now designing.

Kalen:

Few comments on Redlands Mesa ... #18 is a dog hole for what should have been a better closer. Don't doubt the virtue of #17 but the bowl-shaped containment area surrounding the green is a bit much -- credit Engh for tempering that element with his most recent work.

I do like the tee shot on #2 but the water could have been extended a but further out to really make the player sweat.

[Andy Troeger]

I have no problem considering Redlands Mesa to be in the top ten public courses in the Mountain Time Zone. Probably toward the end of the list, but still in there.

Golf Digest has it ranked #17 of all public courses in the USA. I think that's too high, but I could see it being in the top 100.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

I've seen the Digest assessment / re: Redlands Mesa. Candidly, given the diversity of public courses I have played throughout the USA Redlands Mesa would be lucky to garner a top 100 placement. That's not a statement on how poor Redlands Mesa is -- but the sheer volume of outstanding public courses that have either been opened or have opened since Redlands Mesa entered the scene are indeed very competitive and worthy of such attention.

Candidly, I can make a very good case for the likes of Rick Phelps Devil's Thumb in nearby Delta being as good as Redlands Mesa. Ditto the work Forrest Richardson did with The Hideout in Moticello, UT. Even a place like Rochelle Ranch in Rawlins, WY by Ken Kavanaugh can make a good place when held against Redlands Mesa. One can also throw in the likes of Haymaker by Keith Foster in Steamboat Springs. Any of the courses I just mentioned can easily make a very strong case that the totality of what they provide tops Redlands Mesa.

Redlands Mesa benefits from being so easy to reach via I-70 and no doubt that has helped spread the word on the course.

If Redlands Mesa is indeed #17 then Lakota Canyon Ranch and Four Mile Ranch would be top ten courses.

Kalen:

Quick question -- you have ten rounds to play between Redlands Mesa and South Mountain -- what's the break down and please don't toss out a number like five rounds per course. I see it at minimum 6-4 in favor of South Mountain.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Haven't seen any of those courses so I can't comment. I like Redlands Mesa enough that I'm comfortable considering it a top 100 public course even if I haven't seen a large portion of the list. I haven't seen many course not on the list that I like better--and there are others I would bump first.

I wouldn't argue if Lakota Canyon was ranked 17th.

[Kalen Braley]

Matt,

In that scenario I would easily go RM 7-3 vs SM, maybe even 8-2.  I really like SM, but I like RM that much more.

I understand its likely not on of Enghs top courses, but its still pretty damn good when you satck it up against the other publics in the MT time zone.