"Not in character with the rest of the course"

[jim_lewis]

#7 at the Honors Course

[Tommy Williamsen]

17 and 18 at Royal New Kent
18 at Cypress Point
1,2,17, and 18 at Royal North Devon
11 at Pebble Beach
14,15 at Pine Valley

[C. Squier]

18 - High Pointe

[Jim Nugent]

Jim Urbina was kind enough to articulate the reasons why so many water holes are not in keeping with the rest of the course, and or quality design.

I won't share it here in this forum because the nature of the forum has changed so significantly from it's original iteration. So there!

If anyone can guess what he said I will confirm, though.

My guess: the architects often don't design these holes by their own choice.  The owner requires the hole, or the owner's wife.  Or maybe it's for run-off purposes.  The water is not there naturally, and must be added. 

[Mark_Rowlinson]

8,9,10 on The Old Course, 1 and 18, too?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Urbina was kind enough to articulate the reasons why so many water holes are not in keeping with the rest of the course, and or quality design.

I won't share it here in this forum because the nature of the forum has changed so significantly from it's original iteration. So there!

If anyone can guess what he said I will confirm, though.

Adam,

Was he discussing # 8 at Sebonack ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Rowlinson,

Would your comments apply when the TOC plays in its reverse configuration ?

Tommy Williamson,

How are holes # 14 and # 15 not in character with the rest of PV ?

Same question re: # 11 at Pebble Beach and # 18 at CPC ?

Where's the architectural break in continuity with these holes ?

[Adam Clayman]

Pat. Jim. I purposely did not mention the specifics because his comment was general about all water (pond) carry holes. I'd agree with Jim's assertion that its usually the request of a principal.

[archie_struthers]

 

Don't like the vastly different nines at Bulle Rock.....almost seemed like two  different golf course.....it's not the neat in and out of the woods experience that Spyglass is, which is neat....don't like half links half woods ...it's gotta flow !

[mike_malone]

 While I enjoy the challenge of the new #15 at DuPont CC , I  would say it is out of character with the rest of the course. The stone wall seems more at home at a resort course.

[Peter Pallotta]

I've found myself many times saying about a course, 'hmm, this section doesn't feel like it fits in with the rest".  When and why I've confused a 'variety' with a 'disconnect' I'm not sure.

A recent thread got me thinking about this, i.e. that some of the great courses I've read about manifest this 'variety' -- but made me realize that if I played one of those greats, I'd probably be the kind of golfer who'd complain about it.

But setting that aside, why and how in general does a praiseworthy 'variety' strike a golfer (or many golfers) as an unpleasant 'disconnect' is a question I have.

Maybe it has to do with the architect having prepared the way for the golfer to accept the variety, e.g. Tom D's reference in another thread to having little but comparable mounds in holes leading up to a huge and dramatic mound. 

Peter   

[JESII]

I have heard several times about 17 and 18 at Royal New Kent being out of character and am still curious for an explanation of how or why...Tommy, any thoughts?

[Tom Yost]

I thought the 18th hole at Vista Verde is not in character with the rest of the course because of the pond adjacent to the green.  I realize that you need a place to keep water, but 18 is the only hole on the entire course with an actual water hazard; the rest of the course has washout areas and other natural (or at least natural looking) hazards.  Perhaps it wouldn't seem so out of place if it came earlier in the round, but after 17 holes without such a hazard it was pretty jarring to me.  It was the only hole that felt a little like Florida.

This isn't a great picture of the pond -- this picture actually makes it look like it fits in more than it does, IMHO -- but it's the only one I've got.

Carl,

I agree with you completely about the #18 greensite at Vista Verde.  In fact, when I read the subject of this thread, Vista Verde immediately came to mind because I think there are THREE holes with features that are completely out of character with the course.

#18, not just the water feature, but the backstop mounding with bunkers built into the upslope behind the green just seemed out of sync.

# 4 - a par 3 also with the backstop mounding and bunkers behind the green.  I do really like the green itself, however.

#13 - par 5 with that god-awful looking 150 yard long white sand bunker along the right side up to the green.  Just doesn't look like it belongs there.  They could have at least used the same color sand as the rest of the bunkers.

No photos, unfortunately.

[Matt MacIver]

I've heard others cite #11 at Bandon Trails being out of character, because of the pond (which is not in play).  Didn't bug me. 

However I did think the pond (that's not in play) on #16 at Pinehurst #2 was "not in character".  To each his own?

[John Moore II]

I've heard others cite #11 at Bandon Trails being out of character, because of the pond (which is not in play).  Didn't bug me. 

However I did think the pond (that's not in play) on #16 at Pinehurst #2 was "not in character".  To each his own?

I may be wrong, but I think the pond on 16 was naturally there on the property when the course was built. It might not fit exactly, but so far as I remember, it is naturally occuring.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Mark Rowlinson,

Would your comments apply when the TOC plays in its reverse configuration ?

Tommy Williamson,

How are holes # 14 and # 15 not in character with the rest of PV ?

Same question re: # 11 at Pebble Beach and # 18 at CPC ?

Where's the architectural break in continuity with these holes ?

Pat,  When I mentioned these holes I didn't really think that there was a break in continuity.   I recalled the first time I played the courses and at the time I thought that they seemed to be different from the rest of the course.
Asd I approached the tee at PV 14 the look was different and the green seemed to be more benign than the other greens and the water out of place.  15 lacked the "scruffy sandy" look and resembled a parkland course.  I think 15 is a superb hole just different in character, not shot value.

11 at Pebble disappointed me.  That's all.
I differ than most and actually like 18 at Cypress Point.  It just lacked the drama of the rest of the course as an ending hole.

[Jim_Kennedy]

There is  9 hole course that we sometimes joke has one hole that's not in character with the other 8 mainly because it's the only good one, the reverse of the question asked here.

 

[Greg Tallman]

May River #18

[Sean_A]

I have thought about this for a spell and an unusual example came up; Pennard's 17th.  

The look of the hole is not dissimilar to the rest of the course except for the odd landing zone created in the middle of the fairway, but there is a definite blindness off the tee which isn't present on the other holes. Pennard has a reputation for blindness, but in truth its mainly obscured shots or blind shots that have an obvious zone that one is hitting for.  The 17th doesn't offer this obvious aspect and is dead blind.  The look is also a bit different from most of the holes because after the initial feeling of "where do I hit it" on the tee, the remainder of the hole is very confined and the sharp dogleg adds to this sense.  

From a playability PoV the 17th is very different because the tee shot is so prescriptive.  One must work down or against the left to right slope off the tee; few of the other holes (the 18th being the major exception) require much tee ball placement if one wants to merely get himself around the course.  The second shot is a very uncomfortable because like on the tee, no matter which of the three main choices one takes, it requires accuracy.  I spose to sum up, the 17th often rewards conservative/defensive play while nearly all the other holes can often be opened up much more easily (assuming one has a deft short game) with smash mouth golf.  

The hole has grown on me to a degree, mainly because its another piece of what I have come to believe is a most remarkable set of par 5s, an aspect of Pennard which is often overlooked.  However, if I just look at the hole in isolation, it is a difficult one to love.

Ciao      

[Doug Spets]

18 at Kingsbarns.  Not a bad hole, but just didn't seem like an appropriate end to a great course.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Williamson,

I felt the same way about # 18 at CPC, sort of anticlimatic, but, a nice little hole.

As to # 11 at PB, that's the hole that turns away from the ocean and brings you back, inland.

I like the hole, but it seems to be heavily criticized.
I wonder, if it played in reverse, how  many would sing its praises.

Once you reach the crest on # 13 at PV the course takes on a slightly different look due to the dramatic elevation changes in view, but, I think that look continues on # 14 and # 15, so, for me, the harmony remained continuous and not interupted.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Pat, the holes I cited at TOC are on much flatter, or less bumpy, ground. Of course the challenges will be different played the other way round but the ground is the same.