"Not in character with the rest of the course"

[TEPaul]

I've seen this term used a number of times for work done in redesign and even restoration projects. Have any of you ever heard the term used to refer to new construction?

[Anthony Gray]

  Tom,

  I would say No 5 at Whistling Straits. I personally love the hole.

   Anthony

[jeffwarne]

I recently played a course where the first 16 were "all in character" with each other.
Don't know about the last 2- I skipped them.

Why do bunkers all have to have the same consistency, color, size, or shape?
Why should holes be in character with the rest of the course?

[Anthony Gray]

I recently played a course where the first 16 were "all in character" with each other.
Don't know about the last 2- I skipped them.

Why do bunkers all have to have the same consistency, color, size, or shape?
Why should holes be in character with the rest of the course?

  Jeff,

  For this very reason I fell in love with Cruden Bay.

   Anthony

[John Moore II]

#17 at Tobacco Road is somewhat out of character with the rest of the course. Its certainly the weakest hole on the course. You play 16 good holes, then play a dinky 17th with a piss poor routing, and then play a pretty good 18th. I can't think of another course that has an odd ball hole right off hand.

[Jeff Goldman]

Problem is, it may be no more than personal preference that may guide the decision between a hole that is "out of character" and one that "gives the course great variety."    

I'm beginning to think a good hole is a good hole, and a rotten one a rotten one, though I wouldn't want to see 17 at TPC sawgrass at Oakmont.

[John Kirk]

An interesting feature, not in character with the rest of the course, are the blowout style bunkers short and left of the first green at Bandon Dunes.  After that, every sand hazard is a revetted sod style bunker.

[Sean Leary]

At my home course, there are sod walled bunkers fronting the 17th green, built in 2000. Only ones remotely like that on the course. Fazio was questioned about them when he built them but he insisted....Whole green complex in fact is different. Weird...

[Kerry Gray]

#16 at Oakland Hills, the "signature hole".
Not a bad hole. But unlike anything else on the course.

[Carl Rogers]

The same can be said about Strantz's Royal New Kent, between Williamsburg and Ricmond.  The first 16 are interesting and often over the top.  The 17th is a medium length par 5 that is a dud.  The 18th is a spectacular par 4 with a quasi island green that is totally irrelevant to the rest of the course .... too bad.

[Bill_McBride]

#17 at Tobacco Road is somewhat out of character with the rest of the course. Its certainly the weakest hole on the course. You play 16 good holes, then play a dinky 17th with a piss poor routing, and then play a pretty good 18th. I can't think of another course that has an odd ball hole right off hand.

I don't remember the hole numbers, but it seemed there was an area to build a par 3 somewhere on  the back nine which could have replaced the 17th so all you had was a hike up to the 18th tee.  Anybody know what I'm talking about here?  It seemed like a solution to the problem, but I've only played the course once.

[Brad Klein]

I figure it usually refers to the notorious "signature hole."

17th at TPC Sawgrass-Players Stadium, Fla.
6th at the Journey at Pechanga, Fla.
18th at Doral-Blue Monster, Fla.
4th at Baltusrol-Lower, N.J.
10th The Belfry, Eng.
 

[Tim Gavrich]

A lot of people make this complaint about #9 at Caledonia for the reason of routing, and that the hole is only 115 yards from the tips, but I like the hole a lot and do not think it takes anything away from the course at large.

[Scott Stambaugh]

#14 at Bandon Trails.

Beginning with the steep climb from #13 green up to the shuttle waiting to take you to the tee (Golf as it was meant to be?)  and ending with a green complex/surround that I have seen wreck many rounds- it is completely out of character to me.

Sad, because I really enjoy the rest of the golf course- I think the green complexes are the most interesting of the three courses.  14 is just a deal-breaker for me.

PS- I've played the rebuilt portion of the green- I still don't like it.  And, I know why the shuttle exists and I'm not a fan of that either.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I've seen this term used a number of times for work done in redesign and even restoration projects. Have any of you ever heard the term used to refer to new construction?

TEPaul,

Oak Hill and GCGC would seem to be poster boys for your title.

I've heard others say the same about 13, 14 and 15 at Plainfield, but, I disagree, as the terrain on 13, 14 and 15 differs dramatically from the terrain for the rest of the golf course.

Many alterations scream "Not in character with the rest of the course"

You definitely KNOW IT WHEN YOU SEE IT.

It's usually a colossal blunder thrust upon the golf course by a green commitee or Board

What shocks me, is the club's failure to eradicate the eye sore, despite clear recognition that the holes affected are clearly out of sync/character with the rest of the golf course.

Certainly, # 12 at GCGC is amongst the highest on that totem pole.

[John Moore II]

#17 at Tobacco Road is somewhat out of character with the rest of the course. Its certainly the weakest hole on the course. You play 16 good holes, then play a dinky 17th with a piss poor routing, and then play a pretty good 18th. I can't think of another course that has an odd ball hole right off hand.

I don't remember the hole numbers, but it seemed there was an area to build a par 3 somewhere on  the back nine which could have replaced the 17th so all you had was a hike up to the 18th tee.  Anybody know what I'm talking about here?  It seemed like a solution to the problem, but I've only played the course once.

Yeah, you could build a par 3 of about 225-250 yards between the current 12th green and the 13th tee. This would be a real good hole that would bridge the gap between 12 and 13 that is currently a pretty long walk. I would even like to change around the tee on 13 to make it a better hole.

OK, here are some very rough drawings.



This is the current course. With hole 12 fairway and green to the right, hole 13 tee and fairway to the left and 18 fairway direct center. I would take out the present back tee on 13 (small red circle) and take out the woodlands in the large red circle.



Taking out that tee and the trees gives you the ability to put in the new green (obviously the oval shaped bright green area) and two new tees (light green rectangles). The tee on the right would be for the new 13th hole and the new back tee for what would become the 14th hole. The new tee on 13 (would-be 14) makes that hole less silly for the bombers, taking out the option of hitting over the trees and having 135 yards into the green. Certainly you'd have to put in some other tees for the par 3, likely in front of that pond. I like the idea. As for scale, I seem to remember the yardage from the back tee on 13 being about 240 to the middle of the fairway. So, thats roughly the yardage we're looking at, with probably 290 yards into the beefy part of the fairway on what would be the 14th hole from that new back tee.  Yes, you have to double back to get to that tee, but with it being the far back tee, it would not get a large amount of use.

[Carl Nichols]

I thought the 18th hole at Vista Verde is not in character with the rest of the course because of the pond adjacent to the green.  I realize that you need a place to keep water, but 18 is the only hole on the entire course with an actual water hazard; the rest of the course has washout areas and other natural (or at least natural looking) hazards.  Perhaps it wouldn't seem so out of place if it came earlier in the round, but after 17 holes without such a hazard it was pretty jarring to me.  It was the only hole that felt a little like Florida.

This isn't a great picture of the pond -- this picture actually makes it look like it fits in more than it does, IMHO -- but it's the only one I've got.

[Ian_L]

Maybe the 2nd at Enniscrone?  I can't think of another hole that weaves tightly through the dunes like that.  I've only played the course once, though.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

You could add Inverness to your list.

As one plays a golf course, one usually notices the lack of continuity with certain holes or certain stretches of holes.

Continuity is a facet of "character"

Some recognize it when it's abruptly disturbed or disconnected, others, like your pal Coorshaw recognize it when the disruption or disconnect is subtle.

[Rich Goodale]

Maybe the 2nd at Enniscrone?  I can't think of another hole that weaves tightly through the dunes like that.  I've only played the course once, though.

Well spotted, Ian.

#2 at Enniscrone is a relatively new Donald Steel hole (as are 3, 4, 14, 15, 16 and bits of a few others).  The rest were built by Eddie Hackett in 1974.

Rich

[Sean_A]

Maybe the 2nd at Enniscrone?  I can't think of another hole that weaves tightly through the dunes like that.  I've only played the course once, though.

Ian

I would say nearly all the par 5s at Enniscrone are weavers, but not to the degree of doglegging like the 2nd. Though, the 14th is tight like the 2nd.

Ciao

[John Chilver-Stainer]

I just used this term in an email to a client.

The client - a committee - have just approved a toilet/storm shelter for the golf course not conforming to my suggestion. My suggestion being a traditional wind shelter, that one often sees on links courses with sloped roofs, set back out of the line of sight of green approaches.

A local building architect charged with the permit procedures has come up with an alternative suggestion. A box-like structure directly in view behind the second green. His argument - function takes precedence and pure geometrical structures are more honest than boring traditional sloped roofs etc.

A case of the local politics where the whims of a local building architect sitting on the committee are allowed to override the clear conceptual visions of a golf course architect.

Infuriating to say the least - completely spoilt my day and totally “not in character with the rest of the course”, which is naturalistic with shaggy bunkers.

However the last word has not been uttered ……..

[Adam Clayman]

Jim Urbina was kind enough to articulate the reasons why so many water holes are not in keeping with the rest of the course, and or quality design.

I won't share it here in this forum because the nature of the forum has changed so significantly from it's original iteration. So there!

If anyone can guess what he said I will confirm, though.

[PCCraig]

I would say #5 at Whistling Straits and #17 at TOC

I love both courses but a florida style water hole on a "links" style course.

[Dan Kelly]

No. 16 at Hazeltine?