News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2008, 05:49:13 PM »
An example I think works in Scotland is the 8th/11th on the Balcomie Links at Crail.  It's a wide, shallow green with the pin on the left on 8, but a long narrow one with a front pin on the uphill par 5 11th.  It's probably the best green on the course (and there are some good ones)  An overcooked approach on 11 can leave a 100ft putt. 
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Will MacEwen

Re: Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2008, 06:03:27 PM »
I thought part of the reason for double greens was for maintenance - the guy mowing in the morning can knock off a double green much quicker than two individual greens.

I have played a few courses that have them - Nicklaus North, Fraserview, and they neither excite me or bother me.

Tom Naccarato

Re: Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2008, 06:48:47 PM »
Jeff Brauer,

Definition of:
Gimmicky--An ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, esp. one designed to attract attention or increase appeal. To equip or embellish with unnecessary features, esp. in order to increase salability, acceptance, etc. (often fol. by up): to gimmick up a sports car with chrome and racing stripes.

Which of the following would you consider gimmicky?








« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 07:17:17 PM by Tom Naccarato »

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2008, 07:56:40 PM »
There's one that seems kinda silly between the 13th and 16th at Pawleys Plantation.  When I first asked someone at the club why it was a double green, he mentioned that it made mowing easier.

Interesting to hear that Cornish liked them so much.  The only double green I've seen on a Cornish course is for the 13th and 17th holes at Simsbury Farms GC.  It's a big oval type double green.  Why just have two separate greens really close to each other when you could expand the total green surface and perhaps have more possible hole locations (provided developer of the course sees the extra cost as allowable)?
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2008, 08:08:35 PM »
Interesting to see half of Tommy's shots have water hazards as part of the green complex -- and I suspect every one of these greens sites were created, as opposed to found. Strikes me that the "triple green" in the one photo was probably an architect's idea of being clever. Looks pretty bad to these eyes.


Mike: Were you at all worried about the repercussions of having a double green?
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Mickey Boland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2008, 09:11:14 PM »
An example I think works in Scotland is the 8th/11th on the Balcomie Links at Crail.  It's a wide, shallow green with the pin on the left on 8, but a long narrow one with a front pin on the uphill par 5 11th.  It's probably the best green on the course (and there are some good ones)  An overcooked approach on 11 can leave a 100ft putt. 

I just happen to have a shot of this green.  8th pin in foreground and 11th in background.  Approach to the 8th is from the right of camera, approach to 11th is straight back away from the camera.  Seems to me this double green was as much a product of limited space at this particular point on the course than any strategic design. 

« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 05:18:31 AM by Mickey Boland »

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2008, 09:35:08 PM »
Tommy,
They all look gimmicky.
I would only say it isn't gimmicky if the part that connects the greens is in play or has function - like mine. 

Robert,
What repercussions?
Safety --  no there is so little play
Ostracized by my peers -- no -- if I asked Don he would say who cares -- if it is better lets do it...
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2008, 09:36:27 PM »
Well I recognize the third one down in Tom's post. Yuck (no offense Pete) - although I do appreciate that there was not a ton of land for the archie to work with on that course.

Mike - I think your course is rather unique in that very few people are ever going to be on it at the same time so you do not have to worry about one foursome pegging another with an errant shot.

The swale does a nice of job of breaking up the green, and is in play, and the grass seems very short all the way around. Whether you are 10 yards off the green or on the "wrong" green you will probably play the same club. As with most pictures you have shared of Wolf Point, the aesthetics look correct/excellent and nothing looks contrived.

I think the most important aspects of a double green are 1) Groups playing into it are not hitting into each other, 2) They are not contrived or put there for BS reasons and 3) A freakin' bunker is not separating the greens.

1) is dangerous, 2) just looks wrong and 3) is simply ridiculous and forces a retching reaction.

Tom Naccarato

Re: Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2008, 11:44:07 PM »
If you guys could, please comment on each of these examples and give why you think it may or may not be gimmicky.

It doesn't matter the architect; doesn't matter the course--unless you know the green complex and want to comment on it. But don't give the place that the green is at, away to the others. I would like this to be seen as an exercise of not to blame, but more to highlight EXACTLY what you think of the work without fear of inciting the architect, or a member or superintendent. (I'm making these rules up as I go!) The reason for this is unbiased opinion. I want it, I need it, give it to me! This isn't supposed to be incendiary, but more educational of what is and isn't gimmicky. Every answer is correct.

Tom Naccarato

Re: Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2008, 02:42:10 AM »
Jeff Brauer,
If you could, please tell me if or if not, these photos represent "gimmicky" planning.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2008, 03:01:06 AM »
Portland is snowed in and frozen up through next weekend.
#2. Not gimmicky based on the holes and the course's championship aspirations. Have been in the enclosed bunker playing both holes, more often on the left side because of a severe downslope at the 'back' of that green.
#3  Gimmicky, especially the lower node which could easily be separated from the upper double green. With the severity of a ridge on the right side green and that both greens slope to the center, that is functional. Also, for someone of moderate length it is difficult to get proper position for a hole cut right of the five foot high center ridge
#4  Functional as it is the only green near the clubhouse. Gimmickly because sometime it is a double green, and other times bisected by blue stakes into two separate greens.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 03:16:14 AM by Pete_Pittock »

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2008, 03:16:24 AM »
Double greens are getting lost to time. We had two in the City of Bristol until the mid 90s, both are gone as part of clubs improving their course. I think there are occasions they can work, but in a modern plan a double green costs more like a triple green if you have to import USGA specked materials. Courses with the 9th/18th as a doubler seperated by water was a very common design trend of the last 10-20 years.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2008, 03:18:02 AM »
If you guys could, please comment on each of these examples and give why you think it may or may not be gimmicky.

It doesn't matter the architect; doesn't matter the course--unless you know the green complex and want to comment on it. But don't give the place that the green is at, away to the others. I would like this to be seen as an exercise of not to blame, but more to highlight EXACTLY what you think of the work without fear of inciting the architect, or a member or superintendent. (I'm making these rules up as I go!) The reason for this is unbiased opinion. I want it, I need it, give it to me! This isn't supposed to be incendiary, but more educational of what is and isn't gimmicky. Every answer is correct.

Naccers

On the contrary, I think folks thats ay a double green is gimmicky should explain why.  Jeepers, how often do we see cluster bunkers and I think this is one of the biggest gimmicky/scam design flaws of all time - yet few see them as such.  I don't see a problem with double greens if space is a concern.  I have seen a few places where I think a double should be put in and I do think Carnasty's 4 & 14 is a good example of a good double green because the approach for those going at the green in two runs away and it is easy to see a guy left with a monster putt - thus negating length to some degree.  

Handsworth has a neat double green, I think 2 & 17.  Again, its the idea of being left with a 3 putt ranger without having loads of wasted space with high maintenance costs which appeals to me.  I also like shared tees.  Both of these concepts also have the benefit of getting to meet up with other groups and have a quick hand shake and a short chat.  Finally, I am always going on about diversity of challenge/looks/aesthetics and double greens are part of that "tool kit" that shouldn't be brushed aside so quickly.  

Ciao

 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 03:21:05 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2008, 04:48:16 AM »
I think there's a culture that has to go with it... building a double green in Canada won't work because people (lawyers especially)  won't be willing to put pins that close together with nothing in between.

At the Old Course, it's not double greens, it's a huge tightly mowned surface where they put pins on, when trying to built a double green, most architects are designing two greens (meaning two specific planned approaches)...

Carnoustie double green work OK
Phillipe, good comment on the OC, their double greens are just tightly mown areas with two pins and they work because they were not built as two greens attached somehow.   We have a couple that work really well on our Kittocks Course (Devlin).  The first green shares with the 13th and it ideally tells a golfer playing the first hole that they're not in Kansas.  The 7th and 11th also share a green.

The best in Canada has to be Larry Bunkowsky's Burlington Springs - since it opened he has used two pins brilliantly.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Tom Naccarato

Re: Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2008, 10:00:14 AM »
Sean,
I think you can do better then that in regarxds to looking at, and describing what you see with these greens. Like I said, no answer is a wrong answer.

The first green, is in my feelings, a somewhat dangerous green. Ironically, I've never been on this green once where someone was hitting into it, not another group on it. I've played the course--a private club--about 4 times. It was built as a means because of property boundary. in my opinion, not gimmicky entirely.

The second green does work for me in terms of safety and its a pretty challenging putting surface for both holes. I've played it with Peter and told him so too. Although since the last time I was there, the bunkers near the green have taken a odd heart-shaped look to them (but that would be commenting on something other then the putting surface itself) But I do think this green is a gimmick when considering how the architect went about it. (more on that later)

The third green doesn't work for me, and its because the entire thing is an eyesore to look at even from ground level. Its downright preposterous. However, the green is not as gimmicky as you would think. That's because it was by means; it was the only thing the architect could really do thanks to the architect of the second picture--taking the other architects land when they were designing and building these courses! The architect of the third picture gets points for some pretty creative green complexes throughout his course at this project, and though this/these particular green(s), the entire cluster of them--well cluster is a good word--it receives from me both a passing and failing grade!

The fourth green is a gimmick. Pure and simple. It isn't as dangerous as it looks, but the architect strove for building it as part of a rule.

The fifth green is a gimmick--the entire course--is a gimmick. I have never played it, but have seen it being built and when it was completed.

The sixth green is not a gimmick and it does in fact work rather well, no different then the Old Course By means, it was needed the property here isn't wide, but its on pure, unadulterated sand dunes. The architect did in fact strive for building a double green as part of a rule.

The seventh green is not dangerous, but the green is rather gimmicky. By means, it was needed due to routing, but the entire course is a routing problem with the two hardest holes on the course being the 1st and 10th holes and blindness literally everywhere.

The eighth and final green is a perfect example of gimmick, and a dangerous one at that. You can see that since its debut that the concept has been abandoned, with the inclusion of a row of some non-native to the site palm trees. Before the palms, they also started to maintain it as two separate greens in an effort to add a buffer, which didn't work. the first time I played this course, a ball literally was skulled from the approach of the eighth green and literally missed hitting me in the head by inches! No doubt the architect of record would have rejoiced if it had!

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2008, 11:04:00 AM »
Unless I missed it, no one has mentioned the double green (8th and 17th) at Old Town.  Personally, I think in this particular instance a double green works great.  Let me explain why. 

Here is a picture taken from the middle of the 8th fairway showing the 8th flag on the left and the 17th on the right:


Now one from the 17th fairway:


This is the only double green on the course.  So its not a case of some marketing gimmick that is carried out in other spots.  Rather, the double green is there because it fits.  Given the idyllic setting with a creek meandering through, it is easy to see why Maxwell made this area the centerpiece of his routing.  Everything converges here in a massive intersection of the 8th, 9th, 11th, 12th, 17th and 18th holes.  Unless Maxwell wanted to change the entire routing (which is marvelous, so why would he), then this site is the natural location for the 8th and 17th greens.  But there is very little room to work with so the greens had to be extremely close together.  As I see it he was left with two choices: (i) build a pair of small but separate greens or (ii) use one larger double green.  Personally, I think he made the right choice.  I like the way the double green fans out wide to accentuate the creek in front and the rise of the hill beyond.  Would separate greens have allowed the same effect?  And while the connection strip between the two sides is assuredly narrow, it is definitely in play and seems to feed the terrific contours of the typical pin positions.  Hopefully, Dunlop White will spot this and chime in with some real insight.

Ed
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 11:07:05 AM by Ed Oden »

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2008, 11:32:59 AM »
The only double green that I'm fairly familiar with is at Wyncote outside of Philadelphia, a Brian Ault design.  Unfortunately Google maps doesn't have good resolution to provide an aerial.  It involves two par 5's, No1 and No 10, that run pretty much in the same direction.  A large wetlands area separates the fairways for most of the length, then a pond sits at the end of the wetlands before the green.  I don't consider it gimmicky, but I don't necessarily view it an an outstanding feature.  Here is a view from the 10th fairway, and a view from the near the 10th green showing just a small sliver of green connecting the two:




@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2008, 12:39:43 PM »
Unless I missed it, no one has mentioned the double green (8th and 17th) at Old Town.  Personally, I think in this particular instance a double green works great.  Let me explain why. 

Here is a picture taken from the middle of the 8th fairway showing the 8th flag on the left and the 17th on the right:


Now one from the 17th fairway:


This is the only double green on the course.  So its not a case of some marketing gimmick that is carried out in other spots.  Rather, the double green is there because it fits.  Given the idyllic setting with a creek meandering through, it is easy to see why Maxwell made this area the centerpiece of his routing.  Everything converges here in a massive intersection of the 8th, 9th, 11th, 12th, 17th and 18th holes.  Unless Maxwell wanted to change the entire routing (which is marvelous, so why would he), then this site is the natural location for the 8th and 17th greens.  But there is very little room to work with so the greens had to be extremely close together.  As I see it he was left with two choices: (i) build a pair of small but separate greens or (ii) use one larger double green.  Personally, I think he made the right choice.  I like the way the double green fans out wide to accentuate the creek in front and the rise of the hill beyond.  Would separate greens have allowed the same effect?  And while the connection strip between the two sides is assuredly narrow, it is definitely in play and seems to feed the terrific contours of the typical pin positions.  Hopefully, Dunlop White will spot this and chime in with some real insight.

Ed
Naccers

I assume you are tallking about TOC?

Ed, I don't know how I dropped the ball on Old Town's 8 & 17.  This is a great example of why double greens work.  I get the feeling that just because TOC does doubles that many feel its a scam if its copied somewhere else.  I can't see any other reason being offered against them?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom Naccarato

Re: Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2008, 02:58:57 PM »
Sean,
What you are seeing in these images I posted.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2008, 03:08:24 PM »
Sean,
What you are seeing in these images I posted.

Naccers

As much as I hate to admit it, Mucci is right.  Aerial photos are great for research, but lousy in showing how a course may play.  I can't tell you a thing based on the pix you posted, but I can say there are at least three double greens I have seen outside of TOC that I think work well.  Granted, I don't see many double greens and that may be indicative of how often they can be employed effectively.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom Naccarato

Re: Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?
« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2008, 03:40:50 PM »
Arbs,
I understand, understand completely.

Not everyone can feel the ground when looking at an aerial photo. Especially if its a vertical. But these are obliques, and for the amount of time you spend on this site--YOU should be reading these a lot better. You just have too good of an eye and opinion of things not to be able to read features, as well as see the blatantly obvious.

But hey, even I can miss a thing or two. But I do it trying! ;)

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?
« Reply #46 on: December 15, 2008, 10:20:52 PM »
For those interested, here is another picture of the Old Town double green taken from the left side.  It shows the shallowness of the double green (especially the connector between the two sides) as well as some of the contours.



Ed


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2008, 02:46:08 AM »
Arbs,
I understand, understand completely.

Not everyone can feel the ground when looking at an aerial photo. Especially if its a vertical. But these are obliques, and for the amount of time you spend on this site--YOU should be reading these a lot better. You just have too good of an eye and opinion of things not to be able to read features, as well as see the blatantly obvious.

But hey, even I can miss a thing or two. But I do it trying! ;)

Naccers

To use player perspective photos is a step into the beyond I am quite happy to take, but to use obliques to figure stuff out from a course I have never seen?  I am sorry, but its all guesswork as far as I am concerned.  I have seen far too many guys pronounce judgement on courses based on this sort of stuff and its dodgy to say the least. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

RichMacafee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?
« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2008, 07:13:04 PM »
8 and 16 at Kingston Heath share a green, and it's an example of a double green that works well. As you are playing each hole it is not evident that you are playing to a double green, each green looks like it belongs to that hole only. When you get up there the green flows with the land nicely where it joins up.

I'm not sure it adds to the playing of the hole, but it certainly doesn't detract from it, and it looks great.

8/16 green is bottom middle in the image below. 8 green LHS, 16 green RHS in the image.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 07:15:10 PM by RichMacafee »
"The uglier a man's legs are, the better he plays golf. It's almost law" H.G.Wells.