North Berwick No 17

[Anthony Gray]

  Very little is said about this hole when North Berwick is discussed, but this hole sticks out to me.

  First of all I do not have photos (my camera fogged up) so if you do please post them.

   My first observation was when walking off the 2nd tee was how could any golfer without modern equiptment (lob/sand wedge) get the ball on the green from the  front bunker. It appears that this bunker would have been unfair 100 years ago.


   Secoundly the secound shot is very demanding. It has to carry a ridge then stop quickly useing a long iron or wood. Short is close to death. The green slopes back to front which does help stop the shot.

   Was this hole controversial in the past?

   Would it be today?

    How did players play out of the front bunker 100 years ago?

   Anthony

[Tony_Muldoon]

Anthony, the smart play has always been discoraged by the Clubs.  Blast it straight at the second tee and come into the green from the side, thus ignoring the bunker.

sorry I don't know about its history I'll have look tomorrow.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Anthony, you can certainly stop the second shot because of the severe back to front slope (as you mentioned)...

How did it play 100 years ago? It played with a different green site which was blind and connected to (if not the same green as) the first... This green would have sloped steeply from front to back with the back falling in to the sea... Bearing in mind that the right (sea) side of the first green was built up in the not too distant past.

I think Darwin described it as the most wretched green site in existence...

[Mike_Cirba]

Anthony, you can certainly stop the second shot because of the severe back to front slope (as you mentioned)...

How did it play 100 years ago? It played with a different green site which was blind and connected to (if not the same green as) the first... This green would have sloped steeply from front to back with the back falling in to the sea... Bearing in mind that the right (sea) side of the first green was built up in the not too distant past.

I think Darwin described it as the most wretched green site in existence...

Ally,

Listening to your description of the old 17th green almost has me wishing for a restoration!   

Does that make me sadistical? 

[jeffwarne]

Anthony,
a niblick (or any other lofted club with minimal bounce) can be opened an incredible amount-far more than 60 degrees.
Sarazen didn't invent the LOFT of the sand wedge, rather the built in bounce-which while makes it better suited for soft sand, limits the amount that it can be effectively opened without creating too much bounce.
My guess is there was a clever McMichelson years ago using an incredibly lofted niblick to hit shots out of deep bunkers/crevices

[Art Roselle]

"It is a terrible place this double green of Point Garry, worn, bare, and sloping down to the rocks and the beach, and we come to it, besides, at two of the most agitating moments of the round; at the first hole, when we have not had quite enough golf, and at the seventeenth, when, if the match has been a fierce one, we have perhaps had too much...

When all is over, we shall almost certainly agree that the best golf at North Berwick is to be found at the beginning and the end of the course, but we could hardly bear it if all the holes were as exciting as Point Garry."

--Bernard Darwin

[Garland Bayley]

Anthony, you can certainly stop the second shot because of the severe back to front slope (as you mentioned)...

How did it play 100 years ago? It played with a different green site which was blind and connected to (if not the same green as) the first... This green would have sloped steeply from front to back with the back falling in to the sea... Bearing in mind that the right (sea) side of the first green was built up in the not too distant past.

I think Darwin described it as the most wretched green site in existence...

Ally,

Listening to your description of the old 17th green almost has me wishing for a restoration!   

Does that make me sadistical? 

Mike,

I believe the operable word would be masochistic.
That is I assumed it was your desire to play the restored hole that brought your wish.
If your wish was to make others play it, then you are a sadistic #@%@!#$%.

[Mike_Cirba]

Garland,

Sadomasochistic I could live with.