Double Greens -- Do They Only Work at the Old Course?

[Robert Thompson]

I was having a conversation with Ian Andrew recently and we came upon the discussion of his biggest dislikes in golf -- and one of the focal points was double greens. That led to a conversation about double greens, and the fact that the pair of us couldn't come up with another Scottish course outside of the Old Course where they were common.

Can anyone suggest another good example in Scotland? Secondly, it struck us that most double greens were most common in North America, however neither of us could think of a good example where it actually worked. There are plenty of examples where they don't work (I can think of Nicklaus North in Whistler and Devil's Paintbrush in Toronto, both examples of superfluous double greens in my estimation). Can anyone point out a good example of a double green in a North America that actually is a fundamental part of the design and actually contributes something strategic or necessary to the course?

[Jim Adkisson]

Robert, the only double green that I like that I have played is the 9th/18th green complex at Oregon Golf Assn. course in Woodburn Oregon...it has a water hazard fronting the center, conncecting portion of the green, playing to the right of the 9th approach and left on 18.  Although I have rarely seen people hit shots so poorly that they are playing from the "other" side of the green, it works because of its proximity to the clubhouse bringing both nines back to a very short walk in.

[Philippe Binette]

I think there's a culture that has to go with it... building a double green in Canada won't work because people (lawyers especially)  won't be willing to put pins that close together with nothing in between.

At the Old Course, it's not double greens, it's a huge tightly mowned surface where they put pins on, when trying to built a double green, most architects are designing two greens (meaning two specific planned approaches)...

Carnoustie double green work OK

[Tom Naccarato]

Robert,
The word superfluous is a good one; gimmick is another when it comes to modern double greens. Actually where I think they work is where space is a necessity, and only where the holes are coming from opposite directions. I've seen Bob Cupp's triple green at The Vineyard, and while he was really constrained with that property, a triple green was both really gimmicky and didn't work. At the same complex, John Fought has a double green with a separating bunker in between. It works, but its really gimmicky. (so therefore, doesn't work in my opinion)

Where I have actually seen it work is at Ocean Dunes in Florence, Oregon, a course I've played probably 20 times if not more. I can only think of a few times I actually was on the green at the same times as another group going the opposite direction--and that shouldn't be the criteria--but in terms of space, it might become just that.

[ed_getka]

I haven't seen any course, including the TOC, where a double green adds anything to the course. Unless you include really long putts or a chip/pitch off a really tight lie as adding something.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Robert

The 1st-17th double green at Aiken may be an example, albeit for pedestrian reasons: the course narrows considerably here -- it's a bottleneck -- and a double green seems to offer greater efficiency in that regard.

Mark

[Tom Naccarato]

Jim Adkisson,
Ironically, Ocean Dunes was design and built by the same guy as Tukwilla (OGA).  In conversation with Bill Robinson, he told me that he did this because his mentor, Geoffrey Cornish loved double greens and he liked to do them at all of his courses as a salute to his mentor. So yes, it is a gimmick to some extent, but at Ocean Dunes, it does work.

[Michael Rossi]

Rene M's Richmond Hill has a double green. Holes 2 and 10 with a large bunker between. Not to say RH is a great design, but it functions on that property, due to land restriction.

[Tom_Doak]

I agree with Ian that they are a gimmick.

They also don't work well on courses that allow carts, since they cut off access around one side of the green.  Not a problem on a walking course.

Right now the fifth and tenth greens at Old Macdonald are being mowed together because they are so close, but I have asked them to stop at the end of the year.

[Jeff_Brauer]

For most new courses, the legal ramifications of double greens make them spaced as far apart as any other two greens.  They are usually just connected with a little ribbon to say they are connected, because the cost of a USGA green for an acre sized green like TOC is prohibitive without an unlimited budget or naturally sandy soils.

They are contrivances which is why Tommy N sees them as gimmicks. Most truly are.  That said, I did like the three greens for two holes at Devil's Paintbrush because it allowed the two holes to play differently by only building 50% more green rather than 100% more green.

[Joe Hancock]

As another point of discussion, does it matter as to the "gimmickness" of double greens based on what era they were originally designed? Is the tag "gimmicky" more appropriate for new era double greens vs. old school double greens?

Also, is creating a small area of a different mowing height between two closely situated greens, rather than completing the double green by mowing, any more or less gimmicky? I would say that to mow two closely situated greens as one makes sense if the landform they are occupying makes sense to do so.

Joe

[Robert Thompson]

So interestingly, no one has been able to point out another example of a good double green in Scotland. I don't recall a double green at Carnoustie -- which holes?

As for North America, I agree with Mr. Brauer that the Paintbrush works -- though I don't think it was necessary. That said, the two pinned areas are far enough apart as to make little impact on play, IMHO. Necessary? No. But not awful either.

[Philippe Binette]

robert

the double green at carnoustie is with the 5th and 14th greens (both par 5) It allows to play with the yardage I guess and also, on a second shot from 250 yards on firm course, if your don't play your approach with the proper weight, the ball might just keep rolling away from the hole... which will not guarantee a 2 putt birdie

[Mike Erdmann]

It's actually the 4th and 14th at Carnoustie (not the 5th), but I don't think the double green adds anything to either hole.

I believe the 1st and 17th at North Berwick used to share a double green, but obviously that was changed many years ago.

[Rob Rigg]

Double Greens rarely work.

In North America, unfortunately, they seem to be the equivalent of calling an inland course with lots of trees a "scottish links type layout" because there are a couple of pot bunkers.

Maybe non-traditional GCA fans love them, it is another talking point after a round like a waterfall or island green.

I have even played a "triple" green which was ludicrous.

A double green can only work on a true links course where it is difficult to tell the difference between fairway and green anyways.

[Tom Dunne]

MacKenzie designed nine of them at El Boqueron....but only built one in his career, at the Jockey Club.

[PCCraig]

The two 18th holes at black wolf run play to a double green. I think that would work along the lines of the cart access deal because the carts are funneled up to the clubhouse.

[Pete_Pittock]

  Two more double greens in Oregon. The Reserve Vineyards complex has a triple and two doubles (Cupp 1-8-17), Fought (3-5, 8-17). I agree with Tommy that the triple green is a gimmick with a narrow connection between 1 and 8-17. The two 18th holes were supposed to share a doubel green but that didn't work out. A firm and fast maintenance meld under our new superintendent makes the 3-5 complex hairier when playing #5. Recently, it took me five to get down from the putting surface.
  Cupp/Fought's Langdon Farms has the 9th and 18th sharing a green which seems to be a clone of Nicklaus' Grand Cypress near Orlando.
  Are there any at the Gallery?
  Double greens work best in an out and back sequence.
  

[Tim Bert]

More often than not double greens that I've encountered felt forced.  I like them best when it feels like there are two good green sites that happen to be adjacent to one another and they just seem to bleed together.  I have not had the opportunity to play TOC.  I'm not a big fan of the ones that run parallel and end together.  I've seen a few of the 9 & 18 combos, and the ones I've come across haven't worked great.  The two I've played that felt the least forced are at The Little Course, here in Franklin, TN.  It's a par 3 course with a couple of pretty sizeable greens that finish off 4 of the 9 holes.  There's also a really fun practice putting green for kids and adults alike. 

Interestingly enough, both double greens support two holes that are played from 90 degree angles to one another as opposed to side-by-side or out and back.

[Tim Bert]

Visual aids...

The first is unmarked.  The second highlights the double greens in green, and the associated tee boxes and lines of play in red.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I agree.
I've never seen any that I liked outside of The Old Course.
Until mine... 

Rob it is in North America and I like it a lot.
There are no cart paths.
I didn't set out to make a double green, but as I kept shifting the 8th green to get closer to the 9th tee it became a very good choice.
There is a large swale that separates the greens and is in play on both the 8th and 18th holes.
The 8th a long par 3 - the swale is to the left and I've seen several putting from within.
The 18th a shortish par 4 has the swale behind the green - so an aggressive shot will find down below.
Is it a double green?  We mow it all the same...
Maybe some of the few that have been there will comment.

[Robert Thompson]

Mike -- that actually looks like a double green. The ones that typically bug me are the ones that link together for no real reason -- just a sliver. There's a relatively recent example in Ontario.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Mike -- that actually looks like a double green. The ones that typically bug me are the ones that link together for no real reason -- just a sliver. There's a relatively recent example in Ontario.

Robert,
Yes those little slivers are bullshit.

From above Wolf Point's looks like a big oval...

[Don_Mahaffey]

I'm with Joe in that if two greens are so close together that they are mowed as one, how does a small strip of slightly longer grass make it not a gimmick if it is a gimmick when mowed as one large double green? What is pratical is what works. I think the double greens at TOC came about more for practical reasons than for architectual purposes.

The golf course I work at has a double green. It works because…The course gets very little play so the double green has the dual purpose of being the 8th and 18th green for the course as well as the practice chipping and putting green. It made no practical sense to build a practice green when you could just use the green closest to the clubhouse as a practice green. The fact that the 8th and 18th were the closest, and very close together, made the idea of a double green practical.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Nuz...posts crossed in cyber space...great minds think alike