Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs

[Craig Sweet]

Sorry Lou, but nobody has any capital until someone, through their labor, adds value to something ....all I can say is thank god we have hard working men and women in this country that are willing to sacrifice a lot to build the wealth of America....without their hard work many that post here would not have enough money to join a fancy golf club.

[Jeff Fortson]

I think we need a good psychoanalyst to consult here as much as a classically-trained economist.


One example: you keep bringing up the need to tax capital and labor the same and take great delight in exposing conservatives as economic or market hypocrits.   Now, on more than a couple of occasions I've tried to explain that many of us would be content if government stopped the double taxation of dividends, the straight taxation of investment interest income without first deducting interest expense, and the taxation of business profits, but, instead, tax all income at the individual level without regard to its source.

Can you explain how this would be implemented without increasing the already staggering gap between the rich and poor?

I have also tried to explain the rationale for having different rates for capital and labor by which government seeks to encourage the former due to its importance and scarcity relative to the latter.  Anyways, to the extent that many of us believe we're heavily over-taxed and that government today is inappropiately in the business of determing winners and loses, we'll take any break we can get.  Given the last year, this is sort of a moot point, wouldn't you agree?  So why do you keep bringing it up?  Your pragmatism acting up again?

Once again.  Please explain how this will benefit the country.  Please?  Wasn't the Republican candidate for President's campaign slogan, "Country First"?  How does your taxation policy of yours benefit America?

I think that most principled pragmatists after a carefull reading of Friedman and Wanniski or Laffer would conclude that both camps have much in common- namely a bedrock belief in the inability of government to do much good in the economy and a propensity to do great harm.  Even their disagreement relative to monetary policy and its importance in the economy was one of degree and not direction.  Both believed monetary policy had to be independent of politics.  One believed that the money supply should increase slowly, steadily, predictably to accomodate economic growth.  The other prefered tying it to an objective standard, a relatively scarce commodity that could not be manipulated wildly for political reasons.  Both camps believed that the economy would work best for all with markets made up of millions of individuals making decisions freely with minimum government interference.  Common to both, a preference for low tax rates and small government naturally follows.

If this is true then tell me why Friedman argued that the Fed should be done away with and the federal government should be in control of our currency.  Doesn't that stance actually increase the role of government?  Wouldn't taxes for all Americans decrease if our government weren't paying interest to a small group of bankers for every bond, loan, and issuance of currency the U.S. asks from the Fed and banks?

As to the Nurenburg comment, it is inappropriate and way beneath you.  This is an analogy, one that is not only offensive on its face, but totally, grossly inaccurate.  Your side which is now calling for reconciliation and understanding could never help itself during the last eight years, making frequent comparisons of Bush to Hitler and denigrating Christians.  Now Stalin and Nurenberg.  You guys sure know how to capture minds and hearts.

Here is where I call BS.  I like you Lou.  I mean that.  So please don't take this the wrong way, but...

Why do politicians try to steer away from the "liberal" label and not the "conservative" label?  Because there has been a very effective campaign for years to make the idea of holding liberal political views to be negative, if not evil.  Liberals in this country are called "socialists", "communists", "terrorist sympathizers", etc., etc.  Of course a liberal's beliefs are going to be closer to socialism than a conservative, just like conservatives lean closer to fascists.  That doesn't mean any of us are those extremes. 

You have taken part in some of this labeling, regardless of its scope, as have I.  But I know when someone's words speak of unqualified righteousness.  Can you really say that your "side" holds the high ground here?  People were calling Obama a "traitor", "terrorist", and calling for his execution at McCain rallies and you are going to lecture the left about comparing Bush to Hitler?  Give me a break.  There are nut jobs on both sides, no question.  The fact is that verbal blood has been shed on both sides and to point the finger like that only encourages more.

As for Christian denigration... I am a Christian (Catholic).  When churches actively try to enforce their beliefs through the laws of this country they need to be prepared for people to disagree and challenge them.  When religious groups, that are part of the non-profit sector, lobby and support policies that enforce beliefs on others I think it is flat out wrong, IMHO.  While our country was founded by Christian men, it was not intended to wield those ideals on its people.  Citizens of this country should not be ruled by the laws of religion.  People should make the choice to follow religious laws and rules on their own.  Many laws dealing with murder, rape, theft, assault, etc. are shared by all religions and therefore make up a body that is unarguably accepted by all. 

Lou, do you support creationism being taught in schools?  Do you really disagree with irrefutable evidence that supports evolution?  Do you believe the Earth is only 6,000 years old and men rode dinosaurs?  The Creation Museum does.  They actually have life-size replicas of dinosaurs with saddles on them, implying men rode dinosaurs.  Where is there one shred of evidence that this occurred?  This is one small example of religious fundamentalists trying to enforce its beliefs on the citizenry and it is flat-out sickening.  It's not sickening because a group of people want to believe something, it's sickening because they want to force everyone else to believe it.  The Catholic Church used to argue against evidence of the world being a sphere.  They were wrong.  They argued against the fact that the Earth might not be the center of the universe.  They were wrong.  They argued against the fact that humans didn't evolve from primates.  They were wrong.  They are now arguing against the fact the universe is expanding in all directions from the Big Bang.  I hate to say it but evidence shows they are wrong again.  The one thing they definitely have right, IMO, is the teachings of Christ.  I can't think of a better example of how to live than Jesus and the charity work many of these churches do is astounding and undeniably good for their communities.

The left (our "side") has been forced into conflict with the religious right due to the fact that the religious right has attempted to enforce laws and policies directly aimed at applying dogmatic principles on the entire population that go against the ideals of liberty.  Liberty is what this country is about, IMO, not religious ideals.  So throw the, liberals "denigrate" Christians bomb, all you want.  Until the reactionary, religious sect starts accepting the fact that this country isn't about enforcing your religious beliefs on others, expect a full-scale resistance to all attempts to deny others their liberty.   

Jeff F.

[cary lichtenstein]

Novel thought:

I wonder if Bernie Madoff could be indicted for homicide for the death of the French Investor who committed suicide.

Wasn't one of the foreseeable consequences of the unraveling of this Ponzi scheme that some investors would lose everything and commit suicide?

[Craig Sweet]

Shivas.....as you know, money is like horse manure....it does no good sitting there in a pile...it has to be spread around to be effective.

[Steve Lapper]

Novel thought:

I wonder if Bernie Madoff could be indicted for homicide for the death of the French Investor who committed suicide.

Wasn't one of the foreseeable consequences of the unraveling of this Ponzi scheme that some investors would lose everything and commit suicide?

Cary:

   The more likely theory will be for testing mass murder!

   There will likely be many more sad tales of suicide before this mess disappears from the headlines.

[Bob_Huntley]

Sorry Lou, but nobody has any capital until someone, through their labor, adds value to something ....all I can say is thank god we have hard working men and women in this country that are willing to sacrifice a lot to build the wealth of America....without their hard work many that post here would not have enough money to join a fancy golf club.

Craig,

The penultimate and ultimate lines of your post here, sound to me to be  that of class envy. I know a whole lot of people that have worked damn hard at some dirty and dangerous jobs and enjoy club life. 

I agree with you on the need to protect the labor force from the predations of some of the unacceptable facets of capitalism, but I doubt that very few work to "sacrifice to build the worth of America," most do it for their personal betterment. Read Maslow.

Bob

[Craig Sweet]

Bob...of course everyone works for the betterment of their own life...but I do believe many that labor understand the wealth they are creating and expect some fair portion of that wealth to find its' way into their pockets...but these people also understand that it is via their hard work that America has become the economic power that it is..I had a discussion with a fellow at a wine tasting last week...he was saying that he did not think GM should be paying for the health insurance of retired employees....and though we both agreed we did not know the particulars...I said I thought that was a very real expectation for someone that went from high school to the assembly floor...put in 40 years building tremendous wealth for GM....in the trillions of dollars over that 40 years....to further put it in perspective, I said...how about the CEO that leaves after 5 years...10 years...and leaves on a low note...yet receives a nice fat multi-million dollar golden parachute?

[Bob_Huntley]

Bob...of course everyone works for the betterment of their own life...but I do believe many that labor understand the wealth they are creating and expect some fair portion of that wealth to find its' way into their pockets...but these people also understand that it is via their hard work that America has become the economic power that it is..I had a discussion with a fellow at a wine tasting last week...he was saying that he did not think GM should be paying for the health insurance of retired employees....and though we both agreed we did not know the particulars...I said I thought that was a very real expectation for someone that went from high school to the assembly floor...put in 40 years building tremendous wealth for GM....in the trillions of dollars over that 40 years....to further put it in perspective, I said...how about the CEO that leaves after 5 years...10 years...and leaves on a low note...yet receives a nice fat multi-million dollar golden parachute?

Craig,

I can't argue with you there.

Bob

[Lou_Duran]

Jeff Goldman,

Breaker Morant is among my favorite movies.  I would not sacrifice an innocent individual for a political cause.

In regards to Wanniski and Friedman, saying something is "dopey" and calling a respected economist a "hack" are two different things.  But even if the supply-siders held Friedman is such low regard, I think it was Dr. Klein who once remarked on these pages about the great ferocity of debate and in-fighting in the academy on the smallest,  and most inconsequential and unimportant matters

The other thing you may wish to consider is how the nature of money has changed from the time that Friedman did most of his research and writing, not to say anything about the globalization of the economy.  But if you want to put your eggs in the Keynesian basket and believe that spending money you don't have while piling on mountains of debt on top of already existing mountains of debt is the way to salvation, well, I am done.

Oh, please do provide the names and citations for those "higher ups in the Bush adminstration have admitted quite candidly that they designed their interrogation policy directly basedon the practices used under Stalin (and, I guess, by watching that tv show "24")."  Derisive to the last days; your pathological hate for Bush knows no bounds.  I know Jeff, people have used torture and physical and psychological stress for centuries not because they work in extracting information but because they are just bad and like to inflict pain.

Jeff Fortson,

I've enjoyed our time together and hold no animus toward you.  Other than to say that it is not the role of government to equate outcomes, that ALL Americans should pay taxes and have some skin in the game, that Federalism is a necessity if this country as we know it is going to survive over the long run, and that I have never been forced by a Christian to do anything in my life, I have nothing to add.

Sorry, there is one more thing.  I do believe that words have specific meanings and I don't consider the left to be "liberal" at all.  To the extent that those on your side believe that free markets exist in this country and are the cause of the pain we feel, I believe I am totally justified in calling you guys "socialists".  You see, I consider myself to be a liberal in the classical sense.  I think of those who wish to confiscate my property, tell me how to spend my money, control my speech and who I listen to, force me into financial associations which are detrimental to my interests, and otherwise lay claim to how I lead my life as the real facists.

[John_Conley]

Nah, I just Googled it and found it interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Party_(United_States)

Link doesn't work.  Was something taken down?

[Sean_A]

Bob...of course everyone works for the betterment of their own life...but I do believe many that labor understand the wealth they are creating and expect some fair portion of that wealth to find its' way into their pockets...but these people also understand that it is via their hard work that America has become the economic power that it is..I had a discussion with a fellow at a wine tasting last week...he was saying that he did not think GM should be paying for the health insurance of retired employees....and though we both agreed we did not know the particulars...I said I thought that was a very real expectation for someone that went from high school to the assembly floor...put in 40 years building tremendous wealth for GM....in the trillions of dollars over that 40 years....to further put it in perspective, I said...how about the CEO that leaves after 5 years...10 years...and leaves on a low note...yet receives a nice fat multi-million dollar golden parachute?

Craig

The only problem with not paying out the benefits and pensions (other than you are going to tax the very people whos benefits/pensions are up for grabs just to get what is rightfully theirs) is that this has been part of the salary structure for a guy working on the line for the last 30 years.  It has long been a dodgy trick of the Big 3 to publish the union deals and to include all benefits as part of the salary - sometimes boosting the hourly salary significantly - which obviously gives the wrong impression for the general public.  I will say that the Big 3 are at a huge competitive disadvantage because of the American system of pensions compared to how things are done in Europe in Japan.  Essentially, the Big 3 are being punished for being successful for so long.  When a car company is paying $4000 a car in bennies/pensions there is no way it is going to compete with the likes of Toyota or Porsche.  Mind you, Big 3 execs should have seen this imbalance of bennies/pension imbalance cost per unit a long time ago.  Or maybe, the cash for these negotiated union deals should have been banked rather than played on the market.  Its a classic case of poor government regulation to force much higher percentages of pension money set aside as cash reserves.  Now of course, the sums are staggering and there isn't a company in the world (not even cash rich oil companies) who can set aside this amount of cash.

Ciao

[Craig Sweet]

Shivas....it is your "philosophy" that made slavery such a good deal for business owners..

Have a good New Year

[Craig Sweet]

By the way....do you have any idea how much construction of new business is funded with union money?

[Dan Boerger]

I've heard different numbers about how the cost of an American made car is $2,000 - $4,000 more expensive than their Japanese counterparts. I've also never experienced a similar priced American car that wasn't at least $2,000 - $4,000 less of a value.

[Norbert P]

 It's time for a group hug. . .










                                             



 

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

By the way....do you have any idea how much construction of new business is funded with union money?

How much ?

Could you cite the projects ?

I know the Central States Teamsters Pension Fund invested in Las Vegas, but, I'm not sure if that was for NEW construction or to take ownership of existing projects.

[Craig Sweet]

Shivas....minerals in the ground have very little value until someone, through labor, turns them into something....yeah, someone with some capital invested in getting those minerals out of the ground, and someone with capital invested in the manufacturing plant...but none of that would have happened without labor...

I have no desire to continue this circular discussion with you any longer...we have a huge philosophical difference here....end of story.

[Joe Hancock]

Craig,

I'll throw out this story, and tell me how you relate to it please;

When I was a superintendent, I hired young men and women to do tasks related to golf course maintenance. Sometimes, all I was after was an employee willing to run a string trimmer and do manual labor such as racking bunkers. Once, and only once that I recall, did someone come in after their first few days of work and say something like "this work is hard. I won't do it any longer unless you pay me more."

My response was along these lines..."I described the job when I interviewed you, as well as stated the pay. If you feel it isn't worth your effort, then thank you for your time, but I will look for someone who is willing to work their way up".

The fact of the matter is that people have varying levels of desire to make an effort at earning their wages/salary/compensation. Why in the world would we treat everyone as equals in the labor force when there are clearly differences in personalities, desire, effort, talent, etc.?

Joe

[Craig Sweet]

Joe...I never said anything about 'equality" in matters of compensation....I merely stated labor adds value to the finished product and should be compensated accordingly...

[Mike Benham]

Novel thought:

I wonder if Bernie Madoff could be indicted for homicide for the death of the French Investor who committed suicide.

Many tax firms are trying to be creative in handling the losses of their clients. 

As an investment loss, it is only offset against gains while if it is deem fraud, a loss from "theft" would allow the loss to be against ordinary income and I believe, can be applied to prior years.

Disclaimer:  I am not a tax professional not do I play one on TV, I did overhear this discussion at party this week that was comprised of mainly Cal and Stanford Alums ...

[Chris Kane]

I wonder if Bernie Madoff could be indicted for homicide for the death of the French Investor who committed suicide.

Wasn't one of the foreseeable consequences of the unraveling of this Ponzi scheme that some investors would lose everything and commit suicide?

On a thread full of ridiculous posts from all sides, this is the most ridiculous by a very wide margin.

[Craig Sweet]

Shivas...what question did I dodge?   I see little in the way of a "question" in your posts...

I guess investment money grows on trees?  I mean, you keep arguing that no one works unless someone invests money in an idea...takes a risk...but where did they get that money?  Look, I started a business from scratch...I cashed out a modest retirement that a previous employer had set up for me and went into business....hired a part time employee...the next year a full time employee, the third year another full time employee and the fourth year I had 5 employees....all were hired as the business grew and demand grew....they were all paid considerably more per hour than they could make at my competitors business...but THEY made me money....you can lay on me all the mumbo-jumbo about tax cuts and Laffer curves you want...but I put my faith in labor...I hired knowledge, paid them well, and we made money....a business that relies on tax cuts and loop holes, wage concessions , and smart talking lawyers to get by...is a losing business.  

I don't know anyone that ever made a dime without the effort of labor....Unions invest in projects for a number of reasons, one of which is to employee more union workers...I've seen unions invest during slow times to keep people working and money moving in the community....you rarely see investors take that sort of risk....

[Craig Sweet]

Shivas...I never used the word union....

Typical, you putting words in my mouth...

If workers do not feel they are being fairly compensated they should have the option to form a union and negotiate a contract...of course the ONLY option you advocate is "find a new job"....

[Craig Sweet]

Shivas...in a work place with no union, I can either accept the compensation offered, or find another job...

I assume in a union shop wages have been negotiated, and I can have some expectations for future compensation.

[Craig Sweet]

Shivas...people work for themselves in a metaphysical sense...

Unfortunately, conditions other than individual desires set wages....I would love to make $20 an hour mowing greens....and I might be worth $20 an hour to my employer, but typical greenskeeper wages in Missoula start at $6.50 an hour and barely edge past $10....so long as there is no reason for public/private course in this area to pay more, none will...

But getting back to labor and adding value....at what point is the investors money and risk paid back to his satisfaction...and what does the original investor do then?  Sit on it? Continue investing in labor and improvements? Sell out?