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Norbert P

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Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #150 on: December 17, 2008, 02:32:35 PM »

Each watt costs about $1


On my last electric bill, each KILOwatt hour (1000 watts/hour) used cost about 11.38 cents. 

If I was paying a buck a watt, my bill would have been $462,000.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 02:37:00 PM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Rich Goodale

Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #151 on: December 17, 2008, 02:40:33 PM »

Each watt costs about $1


On my last electric bill, each KILOwatt hour (1000 watts/hour) used cost about 11.38 cents. 

Slagbert

You live in Oregon which has Hydro.  In Chicago they must rely on hot air, incineration of e-mails between the Governwhore and Rahm Emmanuel, and methane generated from brat slippage.  $1/watt (whatever that means) seems cheap at half the price.

Richbert

Joe Perches

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Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #152 on: December 17, 2008, 02:40:50 PM »

Each watt costs about $1


On my last electric bill, each KILOwatt hour (1000 watts/hour) used cost about 11.38 cents. 

I think he's describing the infrastructure cost.

Building a 10MW plant costs about $10M to construct.

http://www.jcmiras.net/surge/p130.htm

Richard Choi

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Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #153 on: December 17, 2008, 02:41:33 PM »
I think Madoff's handicap postings are pretty telling. Perhaps everyone should review the handicap of the money managers before hiring them...

RJ_Daley

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Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #154 on: December 17, 2008, 02:47:19 PM »
Who is going to be surprised that the level of collusion it would take to not have had one of the red flags allegedly raised over the last 8-10 years investigated by the authorities, involves something very dark and shady in the spooky nether world of 'black budget ops'?

They supposedly have computer programs monitoring trading there at the SEC for anomolies to the extent that even if a small investor shmuck like me starts trading unusually in options and such, and the insider information trading bell goes off.  Is ther such a thing as too big to detect?  ::)
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Norbert P

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Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #155 on: December 17, 2008, 02:48:41 PM »
 Just the sound of Madoff's name (Is it pronounced Made Off ?)  is enough to make me run away from him.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Rich Goodale

Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #156 on: December 17, 2008, 03:02:07 PM »
I think Madoff's handicap postings are pretty telling. Perhaps everyone should review the handicap of the money managers before hiring them...

Who was that mogul who had posted 20 scores in the range of 84-87 (or whatever) who was outed here on GCA.com?

I also remember a few years ago when Donald Trump's GHIN index at Winged Foot was 0.5 or so.  It has gone up dramatically since being outed.  Must be the pressure of moguldom....

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #157 on: December 17, 2008, 03:11:14 PM »
If I'm not mistaken, those celebrity vanity handicaps have been a very nice living for a certain friend of yours Rich, who might reside near a certain cannery row.  ;) ;D  "Everybody loves somebody sometime... "   ;D ;D ;D

Man, there must be some well situated golf hustler somewhere in Palm Beach these days...  Unless Bernie is one of those odd duck formerly ultra rich guys that never plays for more than a $2 Nassau...
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Lou_Duran

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Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #158 on: December 17, 2008, 03:17:15 PM »
Mike,

You are so right.  How could he do this to his clients, friends, and family.  The picture of his arrest shows a countenance depicting bemusement, not embarrassment.  Perhaps it was just relief from no longer carrying this dirty secret of nearly 20 years.  The man must be a sociopath.  Though hardly satisfying to his former clients, I suspect that he will get his due.

John,

I learned early on as an apartment broker that commercial real estate owners kept three sets of books: one for investors and brokers which were generally available with proper confidentiality assurances; one for the IRS with extremely limited distribution; and the real ones which never saw the light of day.  I am not a very sophisticated guy, but a rather cursory review of the rent roll, bank deposits, and monthly financial reports over a period of six to nine months gave a pretty good indication whether things were as they seemed or further due diligence was called for.

As the WSJ reports, the SEC, long before any of the alleged Bush/Gramm defunding of enforcement had occured, looked into Madoff's operation and found nothing of concern.  The WSJ opines that the SEC can't be expected to detect all fraud, and I agree.  However, in Madoff's case, I think that a relatively simple comparison of a sampling of his security holdings to his cooked financial statements would have revealed a problem.  Somebody had to be holding those assets if they existed, and it is my understanding that he did not claim to be involved in exotic derivatives or other investments whose physical ownership and value would have been difficult to determine.  Even if he was handling the backroom operations in-house, he had to have records which could be verified with second and third parties.

Others have said that the SEC is spread too thin and can't check each and every accusation of impropriety.  I know for a fact that the SEC can and does look into accusations of relatively small, low seven figure insider trading gains, and will spend weeks deposing, analyzing, and investigating.  Often, the targets and those who are subpoenaed are told that they can be recalled at any time and may never find out the conclusion of the investigation.  If I was a defrauded investor, I would be asking for much more from the SEC including a full investigation by an independent party on its failure in this case.

There is an interesting, probably totally happenstance peculiarity here.  There was a financial industry watchdog running rampant in NY during this time.  You would think that AG Spitzer might have caught wind of the complaints against Madoff right in his backyard.  At least during breaks in his frequent oil changes, he may have directed one of his pups to sniff out Bernie and see what he was up to.  Might Mr. Spitzer been on the leash of Mr. Madoff's political largesse?

Now this is really OT- but in the age of Blago, the mind runs wild.  Could Hank Greenberg still be running AIG and perhaps avoided the firm's financial meltdown if he provided the necessary lubricants to the powers that be?  This is not a suggestion for controlling campaign contributions.  Quite the opposite.  In my opinion, there should be no limits on contributions, only that they be done in broad daylight for everyone to see.

If anyone sees Madoff's donee list please post the link.  I suspect that it will be embarrasing and possibly enlightening.   
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 03:19:08 PM by Lou_Duran »

Nick Church

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #159 on: December 17, 2008, 03:20:56 PM »
Madoff violated the trust of his clients, period.  If I were to apply a standard of punishment commensurate with violating the public trust, I would sentence him to 10 years of road-side labor.  Of course, he'd have to be incarcerated in a state that allows such "public service" work.  

Let him clean highways, pour asphalt, prune bushes, carry trash for an hourly wage measured in pennies.  The community would benefit from the work and at a reduced cost.  At the same time, Mr. Madoff would be given an opportunity to not only learn from his mistakes**, but in some small measure repay the debt he created by working below scale --- remember I said pennies per hour.

However, since decades of publicized outcry has led to the evolution of our penal system into a rehab state of social welfare services, many of us will be less than satisfied to witness Mr. Madoff residing at a facility that offers conjugal visits, recreational services, therapy, educational outreach, and medical supervision free of premiums.  I'm sure he'll learn his lesson that way.  


An aside to the SEC oversight:

I may not be well versed in financial or investment matters, but it seems to me that the SEC is much like any law enforcement --- they will always be the third party to arrive at the scene of the crime.  And thus you have the standard upon which the Second Amendment holds resolute --- only you can truly defend yourself.

**EDIT
Footnote: Recidivism statistics tell us that the vast majority of those incarcerated in fact do not learn from their mistakes.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2008, 10:33:15 AM by Nick Church »

mike_malone

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Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #160 on: December 17, 2008, 03:23:49 PM »
 I'm disappointed by the lack of "hat" analysis going on here.
 ;D ;D
It looks like the type of hat that has a plastic rectangular logo often seen in upscale clubs.
AKA Mayday

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #161 on: December 17, 2008, 03:34:30 PM »
Here's his hat:

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #162 on: December 17, 2008, 03:38:25 PM »


Is it Fresh Meadow?



Or Old Oaks?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 03:44:04 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #163 on: December 17, 2008, 03:47:22 PM »
Lou, you mean you didn't already see individual contributions that is found on Fox Noise...?  They only go back to 2004.  Here is a link to one version of political lobbiest expenditures and shows a bigger lobby effort when FINRA was being shaped in 1998-2003:
http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/clientsum.php?year=2008&lname=Bernard+L+Madoff+Investment+Securities

Maybe if you look harder Lou, you still might find some version of Gramm buried somewhere.

You'll feel somehow righteous I suppose that his individual candidates contributions are heavily east coast Dems, but a few sellect and notorious Reps.   But unfortunately, you still seem to be saying, keep the money in politics...just so we know who is buying who.  I wish you were kidding.  Political corruption and influence peddling is a bi-partisan sport, and who said differently?
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mike_malone

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Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #164 on: December 17, 2008, 03:51:39 PM »
 Steve,

   You are the man!
AKA Mayday

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #165 on: December 17, 2008, 04:27:00 PM »
Apologies if this has been posted already, but here's Bernard Madoff himself participating in a roundtable discussion in 2007. 

For a con-man of epic proportions, he's a very unimpressive communicator.  Maybe it's because lying is hard work.

One of his junior staffers also speaks...he's even less impressive.

The video is over 30 minutes, but you'll get a full flavor for the man in very little time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auSfaavHDXQ

Unfortunately the roundtable moderator is absolutely awful.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #166 on: December 17, 2008, 04:29:09 PM »
I don't think it is a golf logo.  It looks like a working man's hat and coat.  Maybe the service elevator man, or postal worker or something.  

I guess since Abramhoff's perp walks, logos on hats and styles of hats on the perp walk are a new leading financial crook indicator...
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Dan Kelly

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Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #167 on: December 17, 2008, 05:01:43 PM »
This isn't a very sophisticated question, but it's the one I keep coming to in times like this:

How does a guy like this SLEEP?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Peter Pallotta

Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #168 on: December 17, 2008, 05:10:07 PM »
Dan - maybe it's like actors playing villains:  the secret is to remember that villains don't think of themselves that way.  I can imagine BM blaming it all on the 'failings' of his clients, as in "Why do these people keep tempting me with all their money"?

Peter
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 05:12:03 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Cabell Ackerly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #169 on: December 17, 2008, 05:12:44 PM »
I don't think it is a golf logo.  It looks like a working man's hat and coat.  Maybe the service elevator man, or postal worker or something.  

I guess since Abramhoff's perp walks, logos on hats and styles of hats on the perp walk are a new leading financial crook indicator...

It's a Jackson Hole Resort (Wyoming) hat.

David_Elvins

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Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #170 on: December 17, 2008, 05:15:57 PM »
How does a guy like this SLEEP?


I think this article give a pretty reasonable explanation of how things come to this.

http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/12/16/madoff-fraud-investments-oped-cx_ak_1216kessler.html
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Lou_Duran

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Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #171 on: December 17, 2008, 05:19:36 PM »
Dick,

Thanks for the link.  I will look it up.

I am dead serious about free speech and political contributions.  It is not the money, it's the individuals who rise through the political machines and find "public service" to be very attractive, highly renumerative lifestyle.  Pass a simple law that every dime received or spent by a campaign must be posted prominently on the internet with the full proper names and domiciles of the actual principals clearly identified.

An inconsistency in my libertarian orientation is that I believe in strict, rather brief term limits.  Just like you and many on this site believe that corporate CEOs are not anything special, just lucky or well-connected, I believe that this is true of politicians in spades, even at the highest levels.  I prefer the thinking of Washington and some of the founding fathers who saw public service not as a career, but a brief hiatus from the private sector AFTER some proficiency in an endeavor other than politics is demonstrated.

Peter,

"Why do these people keep tempting me with all their money"?  Like McCain's and Dick's otherwise good, honest politicians?  




  
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 05:21:39 PM by Lou_Duran »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #172 on: December 17, 2008, 05:24:52 PM »
Lou - If I understand your question, I'd say yes, very much like the otherwise honest politicians, and I dare say very much like many of the rest of us at one point or other in our lives, and in one way or another. I guess that's why people who know the world and the world of business are always urging us to do our due diligence.

Peter
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 05:26:36 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #173 on: December 17, 2008, 05:37:39 PM »

 Bloomberg states that he has a 9.8 handicap. Any bets on how honest that handicap is?


Mayday,

I'll bet you it's honest.

What do you want to bet ?

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bernie Madoff's $50 Billion Fraud thru country clubs
« Reply #174 on: December 17, 2008, 06:01:14 PM »
Well Lou, it seems to me that there is one fragile branch onto which you and I can meet in gerneral agreement regarding politicians just being lucky and well connected, and demonstrating over and over again that strict term limits are better than no term limits. 

But, as for too many CEOs (not all), they are the connection to the money that makes the luck for too many politicians... IMHO.  And, getting all money out of politics is the only way to serve the people, and getting elected based on what you say in free open airwaves and media.  Throw in an additional election regulation similar to what the Brits have.  The election is declared and the campaign season goes for about 6-8 max.  Oh, and give the national candidates free transportation too.  No more Enron jets like 1999.

No special interest negative ads on TV misleading the masses in 30 second slim fests.  Make the people get off their dead asses and go read the position papers of the candidates on the Internet, listen to free sponsored debates on TV, and force them to make informed choices.  Let the press scrutinize the positions of candidates until the cows come home.  Just no phoney fair and balanced news from Fox or MSNBC.  If they catch-em lying, prove it in the free press.   
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