[Tom Huckaby]

There's little greatness in 10, other than you are at least getting close to my daily walking path (behind practice green, 18 tee, 17 green, up the hill toward the dish).

 

Interesting thought re making that hole longer too... there is room for it... but for safety reasons you'd also have to move 11 tee... not that that also would necessarily be bad....

Neither 10 nor 11 are any great shakes (though 11 is a bit more interesting).  I say let Goodale at em with a bulldozer.

TH

[Mike Benham]

I think Bell/Thomas could have made a cool par-5 on this land with a tee further back into the oaks and a punchbowlish green just over the hilltop on which it is now placed.  Maybe that change could still be done?

Rich

Doubtful that the pushing the tee back par-5 would work as that would put the 11th green and car park adjacent to the landing zone of the fairway, resulting in hooks or slices denting Prius or craniums ...

[Charlie Goerges]

Okay, here's my concept (somewhat changed from my original description).

Here is the current configuration (10 on the right, playing down and 11 on the left, playing back up):





And here is the concept:





The tenth (on the right) would be a short par 5 (about 510 yards) from the very back new tee, and the 11th would remain at about 350 yards, but would be a blindish tee shot.

[Tom Huckaby]

WOW!

That is some powerful software you have to do that, Charlie.  VERY VERY impressive.

And it seems to me that would work great and would improve both holes.  The only real issue is that area to which you moved 11 tee is a pretty steep hill...that tee would have to be benched in... also a blind shot there might get problematic, pace of play wise... but heck, make it happen!

I am off to look at this in person... the aformentioned walking path is about 100 yards max to the right of where Charlie put 11 green.  Will report later....

TH

[Charlie Goerges]

Tom, just think of the new 10th green as just on or slightly beyond the current 11th teebox.

The software is just photoshop, which is extremely powerful, though it did take me a little while. A real expert probably could have done it in half the time I did.

[Tom Huckaby]

Charlie:

Well I guess I am easily impressed.   

And your intrepid reporter here has returned from his walk... and I have bad news:  your concept isn't going to work.  To get it to 510 means of course 70 yards back from where the green is now... and that gets into a VERY steep hill.  You could move it back 30 yards and stay above the hill, but that to me doesn't seem to be much of an improvement.

I took some pictures with my cell-phone that illustrate the problem, but they are so small and so bad they will not help.  Just trust that this is a concept that looks great in theory but will not fly in practice.

Oh well... not your fault... aerials can't show elevation changes....

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Maybe these pictures help, maybe not....

This is from high above... 10 green is peeking in on right.. shows the hill behind and to the right of 10 green.  Note straight back from 10 green means into 18 fairway - no go for that.




This one is from closer up... again looking AT the problematic hill....

[Charlie Goerges]

Awww shucks!

Oh well. Though in thinking about it, I did gain about 25 of the 70 yards by pushing the tee further back.

Also, When I did my photoshop, I placed the new green down past the 11th tee and had doglegged the fairway to the right of the big neat tree. I'll do a quick photoshop superimposing the 11th tee to see what you think.

[Tom Huckaby]

Charlie - it's fun to contemplate for sure!

Note problem with pushing tee back has already been described by Mike B... puts fear and loathing to all in the parking lot.

Pushing 10 green straight back can't work without redoing 18... and that's no good.  Anything behind current 11 tee (straight and right from current 10 green) is the very serious hill I tried to describe and picture.

Just not sure how this is gonna work out there in the real world.

TH

[Charlie Goerges]

I'm sure you're right Tom (I'm not being eristic, I'm just playing). Anyhow, here is the overlay image I mentioned.

[Tom Huckaby]

Any use of that word is great by me.

 

The problem remains the hill.  Your new 10 green and new 11 tee are on a quite steep hillside.

TH

[Charlie Goerges]

I may be a lot of things, but I ain't scared'a no stinking hillsides!

Agreed on the steep hillside, but basically extend/lower the pad for the 11th tee (would require quite a lot of fill I'm sure) and there's the new 10th green. Of course the new 11th tee would need to be benched into a steep hillside as well as build up, but that's not my problem, I'll leave it to the big-shot architect!

[Tom Huckaby]

I may be a lot of things, but I ain't scared'a no stinking hillsides!

Agreed on the steep hillside, but basically extend/lower the pad for the 11th tee (would require quite a lot of fill I'm sure) and there's the new 10th green. Of course the new 11th tee would need to be benched into a steep hillside as well as build up, but that's not my problem, I'll leave it to the big-shot architect!

That's a LOT of fill.. and I really fear for the safety of those below, on 16 green..... god help them during the winter rains...

But dare to dream!

[Charlie Goerges]

Thanks for being our intrepid reporter. Actually, I was thinking you're more like the Seth Raynor to my CB Macdonald. Which course should we redesign next? Maybe we should see if the Pebble Beach Company is looking for new designers to keep on retainer.

[Tom Huckaby]

Thanks for being our intrepid reporter. Actually, I was thinking you're more like the Seth Raynor to my CB Macdonald. Which course should we redesign next? Maybe we should see if the Pebble Beach Company is looking for new designers to keep on retainer.

You can handle Macdonald.. but me as Raynor is the scariest thought ever put on this board.
 

I just am loving this as I do walk by the area at least 4 days per week.

TH

[Charlie Goerges]

You can handle Macdonald.. but me as Raynor is the scariest thought ever put on this board.
 

I guess Raynor probably wouldn't be too good for you, he died pretty young. And I couldn't be MacD. I'm not nearly enough of a blowhar....ah I mean outgoing person.

[Tom Huckaby]

Well said.   

And I have been very remiss to omit this so far.. but GREAT quote from Marcus Aurelius.  Words to live by for sure.

Now back to Stanford #10.... I will say this:  the green is VERY VERY tough.  I watch missed putts there all the time.  Very steep back to front.

TH

[Charlie Goerges]

Thanks Tom, I came across the quote in the book "Doubt: A History" which I highly recommend.

Now I'm really anxious to see the photos of 11. I need to see what my handiwork has destroyed.

[Ian_L]

Wow, what a great discussion!  On what other discussion group could we have a scout out on the course within hours of a proposed change? 

The new 11th tee would certainly provide a different perspective to the hole with an uphill, partially (or fully) blind tee shot.  Sadly, this doesn't look feasible due to the severe slope, unless we put your beloved tree right in the middle of the green.   I wonder if THAT's ever been done.

I will likely be out on the course some time this weekend, so hopefully I can remember to take some pics of this area.

[TX Golf]

I love the idea of the 10th being a par 5.... however the tee shot on 11 would be interesting if it were a blind shot as it is a lay up... Not sure how I feel about a blind lay up shot... Then again, it could make the hole much more interesting.

[Jon Spaulding]

#10 - strong, challenging hole with a green that has Thomas/Bell rolling in their graves. I like the hole until one arrives at that tiered monstrosity that would make Ted Robinson proud.

[Charlie Goerges]

Ian, some shots would definitely be cool to see of that area. And hey, if they can build courses on the side of a mountain, Palo Alto shouldn't be too hard!

[Ian_L]

Well, I'm back from my round and have a few pictures of the area we're talking about.  As Tom said, there's really no way to route the hole right of the oak without some major earthmoving and danger to the players on #11 tee.  Either way, the view would look pretty cool from the fairway.  The current green is left of the tree, Charlie's green is right of the tree:


Looking at Charlie's green site from the original:

The only possible change I can see would be moving the green back about 15 yards (keeping the back portion of the current green).  It's only a slight downslope behind the green:


The steep drop off is evident left of the current 11th tee:


Looking down the slope.  As usual, it's steeper in real life:


Looking back from the tee (that's the 16th green below):


The tee shot would definitely be blind on #11:


A look at 11 tee from #18 tee:


Let me know if you'd like any other pictures, I'll probably be out there again next weekend.

[Charlie Goerges]

It definitely looks like a ton of fill would be needed to pull that off, and the 11th tee would have to be moved so far as to make it a blind shot. Of course the fill for the "new" 10th green and 11th tee could come from shaving down the hill which would make the shot less blind (if there is such a concept). In the end, the improvement would have to be pretty vast to justify that amount of work, and it most likely wouldn't be.

It would probably be easier to just make the 11th play in reverse (and make it the 10th) and do the same for the 10th (and make it the 11th).

At any rate, as you mentioned Ian, where else could someone do a field study on this kind of thing?! One of the beauties of this site I'd say. Now on to the 11th!

[Tom Huckaby]

Thanks, Ian - see, that's what your less than intrepid, within the hour, not having a camera with him reporter here MEANT by all those previous posts.

 

So yes, on to 11, as it is... no surprise to those who know me but I love the hole... short par 4 with accuracy rewarded... but Ian, fire away!

TH

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