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Scott Macpherson

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Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« on: December 11, 2008, 09:23:28 AM »
HI,

After 4 years of consultation, last week we submitted a master plan to the planning authorities for a new 18 hole course on a wonderful old Estate (est 1770's) near Newcastle, UK.

It has been decided that the new course, should planning permission be granted, will be named 'The Colt' in recognition of the owners fondness and contribution to the British horse racing industry, and in tribute to one of the UK's greatest architects – Mr H.S.Colt.

There are no plans to have horse jumps on the course, but it will be designed in the style of Colts work. We are currently researching Colts quite astounding array of work at the moment in preparation for a possible start with construction in the English spring of 2009.

I know some contributors to this site, such as Paul Turner, have a great knowledge of  Harry Colt, and many others admire his courses. We have no thoughts to design template or replica Colt holes on this new course, but I am interested to hear what Colt holes GCA contributors like the most. And what features define a Colt design for you?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Scott

TEPaul

Re: Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2008, 09:28:20 AM »
"Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?"


Sure, why not. I'd nominate Pine Valley's #5!   ;)

hhuffines

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Re: Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2008, 09:29:25 AM »
Great thread... I can't add anything though, but, would love to learn more about his work at Muirfield.  How much of Muirfied is Old Tom versus Colt?

Scott Macpherson

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Re: Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2008, 09:36:15 AM »
Mr Huffines,

Re Muirfield, the only holes that remain from the routing before Colt laid out the current routing, are the holes known as 2,7,8 and 9. These were not their pervious number however. e.g From memory, the current 2nd hole was the 3rd on the pre-Colt 1920's routing.

Cheers,
 
Scott

Tom Dunne

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Re: Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2008, 09:47:54 AM »
Hi Scott,

A couple of my Colt favorites.

*I love the stretch from 3-5 at Portrush, with a short, blindish par-3 followed by "Fred Daly's", a killer par 4.5 with stout challenges on the first two shots, then the downhill short four playing straight out to sea. There's a really great rhythm to that sequence of holes.

*The 13th at Haagsche, routed through a natural valley with the green benched on the ridgeline. I would definitely recommend a Ryanair hop over to Amsterdam to check out Colt's Dutch courses. GCAer (and gca) Frank Pont is a excellent guide and Colt aficionado over there.

Sounds like a cool project. Keep us posted.


Scott Macpherson

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Re: Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2008, 09:54:19 AM »
HI Tom,

You're right, I need to get to Holland. I will very soon. And I have spoken to Frank. He has great knowledge of H.S.Colt and has put many wonderful photos of golf courses up on his web site www.golfarchitecturepictures.com

cheers,

Scott

Scott Macpherson

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Re: Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2008, 09:56:35 AM »
TEPaul,

That hole at PV is a great hole. Have you seen his Par 3 4th hole at Swinley Forest?

Scott

Tom Dunne

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Re: Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2008, 10:03:21 AM »
Scott,

What are your favorite holes at Portrush? I would think that when it comes to great Colt holes, that links is a treasure trove.

As for the 5th at PV...the cool thing about it is that it's not only an all-world par-three, it's also the key to the routing, moving the golfer across the ridge to an entirely new stretch of prime ground. Can't remember who made that point (Doak, maybe?) but it has always stuck in my mind and makes me appreciate that hole even more.

TEPaul

Re: Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2008, 10:05:21 AM »
Scott:

I have not; I've never been to Swinley Forest.

But I will tell you one thing----eg the likes of Colt, Mackenzie, Fowler and Alison et al (essentially the so-called "Heathland architects") continue to creep up my personal list of the best or most impressive golf architects of all time and they are all either at or very near the top, at this point. I give added points to them for being some real stylistic pioneers in the entire sweep, evolution and history of golf course architecture, particularly INLAND architecture, which is something most of us today fail to appreciate was so very different for them back then.

Michael Rossi

Re: Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2008, 10:15:28 AM »
Excellent choice going with HSC. His designs are very well received, the PGA tour players raved about Hamilton GC in Ontario Canada. Sunningdale has always appealed to me. Here are some photos from 2006.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2008, 10:23:26 AM »
How much of those Sunningdale pics (Old Course) are Colt though?... A lot of those hole concepts must originate from Willie Park Jr...

Still, there are some cracking holes on the New Course... Now the scrub has been cleared, the Par-5 6th is definitely a favourite...

Dan Boerger

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Re: Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2008, 10:30:43 AM »
Boy, those are some great photos and, like Tom Paul, my admiration continues to grow for these heathland pioneers. I'm in the midst of planning a trip to visit a close friend who lives in Dorking (Surrey) and we're already researching places to play. At the top of my list are Woking, Sunningdale and Swinley. Those photos really make me wish this were April 11, not December 11!
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Scott Macpherson

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Re: Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2008, 10:37:38 AM »
HI Tom Dunne,

It's been a few years since I went to Portrush. I like you love that course. Because it is a links however, and our site is inland, we are not taking much from that wonderful course of his.

TEPaul,

Colt was bold with his designs. Bolder than most give him recognition for. He put greens in places others may have been more timid to do. He may have cajoled Crump to put the 5th green over the valley at PV like Marion Hollins did with Mackenzie with the 16th at Cypress.

Michael,

Thanks for the Photos. Great stuff.

Ally,

Good question. Lots of people have been stirring the design pot at Sunningdale – so to speak. Martin Hawtree is the architect retained at Sunningdale to keep control of things, and when I spoke to him he said the 7th green on the Old Course (which is one of the photos Michael has posted) was 'pure Colt' and it is great theatre. A blind tee shot, and then that wonderful green. The hole is not as fearsome today as it was back in the day, but it was great to see the best women Pro's get caught out there during the British Womens Open this year. Ball control is key to playing Colt holes well.

 :)
Scott

Michael Rossi

Re: Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2008, 10:55:09 AM »
How much of those Sunningdale pics (Old Course) are Colt though?... A lot of those hole concepts must originate from Willie Park Jr...

Still, there are some cracking holes on the New Course... Now the scrub has been cleared, the Par-5 6th is definitely a favourite...

Ally

you are probably right, and I loved the 6th also, the only photo I have of the "new" is below, mycamera battery died on that side.

Michael Rossi

Re: Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2008, 10:56:50 AM »
How much of those Sunningdale pics (Old Course) are Colt though?... A lot of those hole concepts must originate from Willie Park Jr...

Still, there are some cracking holes on the New Course... Now the scrub has been cleared, the Par-5 6th is definitely a favourite...

Ally

You are probably right, and I loved the 6th also, the only photo I have of the "new" is below, my camera battery died on that side.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

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Re: Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2008, 10:59:58 AM »
#5 at Pine Valley...isnt that also the greatest hole in the world?

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2008, 11:13:47 AM »
Scott, firstly congratulations on getting an exciting new project in tough times.


I agree not to try and copy templates, so that leaves you with the land you have and the need for a ‘Colt’ routing.

If I wanted to play a modern course that was to stand as some kind of tribute then some of the things that would attracted me...


A tight green to tee structure with an overall course length of less than 6500 yards.  The walk feels compact but the golf is great.

Cracking Par 3’s some of them quite long.  They have to be good enough to stick in the memory.

A couple of drivable par 4’s

A ‘few’ tough Par 4’s

And I could do with only 2 par 5’s.

I’d expect wide playing corridors and great green sites.

The key to the routing might be; to review and review it until you were sure there would be no weak links, only then work on the detail of each hole. I’m sure I’ve played out and back Colt but mostly the routings twist and turn in various ways.

If this is inland then I’d definitely want to see the bunkers cut into the faces of natural or man made mounds.  N my mind they wouldn’t be huge but they’d be influential. ON at least one hole there would be a diagonal run of them (sorry is that a template?) across the fairway.

The numbers of bunkers? Too hard to say, can think of examples both ways.


Finally once I started on site with a really solid routing I’d get adventurous and throw in a few surprises maybe even new holes that present themselves.

I’d contradict some of the above if the land shouted at me. Apparently he didn’t like blind holes, but he built them…

Sorry if this like a lesson in ‘sucking eggs’ or all seems a bit generalised GCA wish list, but at least you’ll have 1500 prospective players.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2008, 11:39:41 AM »
Scott

A while back I took a crack at converting Colt's writings into principles a la Mackenzie.  Note these haven't been vetted with anyone in a position of scholarly authority; however, as a rough guideline to Colt's philosophy maybe it will help.

You will note two groups of principles, the first taken from a 1912 essay, the second from a 1906 essay.

FYI, I added footnotes that contain the specific reference, as well as compare the "principle" to Mackenzie's own, specifically to see where parallels existed, and therefore how each might have influenced the other, but footnotes don't translate easily into the format of SMF.

Mark


Colt’s “Principles” of Golf Architecture: 1912

1.   “I firmly believe that the only means whereby an attractive piece of ground can be turned into a satisfying golf course is to work to the natural features of the site in question.  Develop them if necessary, but not too much; and if there are many nice features, leave them alone as far as possible, but utilize them to their fullest extent, and eventually there will be a chance of obtaining a course with individual character of an impressive nature….[T]he designer of a course has one clear duty: to try to create fresh holes of interest, and not reproduce with unsuitable materials holes similar to those already in existence.”

2.   “First view the land and walk over it once or twice, and inspect it very carefully, but don’t yet lay out a single hole; then make a second visit, having considered the scheme in the meantime, and on that occasion settle, if possible, the framework, and take two or three days to do so, leaving the bunkering in great part for a subsequent visit.”

3.   “The quantity of land required depends very largely upon its shape, as if square it will be very difficult to use up satisfactorily, but a strip two hundred yards in width is easier to deal with, especially if somewhat circular.”

4.   “The first thing to do is to settle upon the site for the club-house, and this occasionally creates great difficulty.  I always favour a fine view from the club windows, and have more than once done battle over this with those favouring only the utilitarian side – such points as nearness to a railway station or very easy access.”

5.   “If the 10th tee is anywhere near [the clubhouse], it is of advantage, especially for a club to be used by business men, as there will be two starting-points, and in clubs of this description, where a large number arrive about the same time, this is an important matter.”

6.   “Personally, I like a fairly long, plain-sailing hole for the first one, and think that a short hole is out of place, as if it is a good one it ought to be difficult, and it seems unfair to ask much of a man who has just stepped out of a train or motor-car.”

7.   “A couple of long holes at the commencement get the players away from the first tee…After that the sequence of the holes does not matter, and what we have to look for are four or five good short holes, several good-length two-shot holes, varying from an extra-long brassie shot for the second to a firm half-iron shot, one or two three-shot holes, and two or three difficult drive and pitch holes.  A fairly equal distribution between what I have designated as good-length two-shot holes and the others of all degrees seems to me about right….  If possible, the short holes can be divided between the odd and even numbers, so as to give the partners in a foursome a share of each”

8.   “What we want to have is variety, gained by utilizing all the best natural features of the land, and alternating the holes of various lengths….And let us endeavor to avoid the zigzag backwards and forwards, and also holes of a similar character to each other, so that if a stranger come to our course he may go away remembering each hole by a distinctive feature.”

9.   “If variety be strongly developed, we also promote the best feature of the game – different classes of strokes under varying conditions.”

10.   “I personally dislike blind shots on a course….A really skilful [sic] player can so wonderfully control the movements of the ball after it reaches the ground.  It is always entertaining to watch a great player’s methods when he is approaching the hole, and quite impossible to get the same amount of pleasure when 30 feet of sand blocks the view…Good play and bad play are, moreover, equalized to some extent, as there can never be quite the same chance for the good player to show his extra skill under such conditions.”

11.   “It is impossible to give any definite rules on laying out a course, or to state what length it should be, as everything must depend upon the nature of the materials in each individual case…[L]ength has very little to do with merit.  There is, however, one great feature that appeals to me – the elasticity of a course; and in designing the framework it is better to walk forward to the next teeing ground, and not to retrace one’s steps after playing a hole.”

12.   “There is no doubt that a series of tees, whereby the length of a hole can be altered with varying conditions, is an advantage….The distance of a tee shot will vary enormously in summer and winter….In making the different teeing grounds it will be possible to gain a little extra variety by playing the tee shot at different angles to the course; thus a teeing ground made at some thirty yards or so to the right or left of the one in front will very likely create additional interest in the round, and be better than one made exactly behind it.”

13.   “When cross-hazards are made for compulsory carries in playing the second shots, these are the occasions for [back tees’] use….If there were many examples of this class of hole on the links, long driving would be at a discount, but two or three holes of this description add to the interest of the game, and we cannot afford to sacrifice everything to the length of the tee shot.”

14.   “It is by no means impossible to give a weak player every opportunity of enjoying the game within his powers, and at the same time to provide a test of golf for Harry Vardon or James Braid at his very best.  To do this, the designer of a course should start off on his work in a sympathetic frame of mind for the weak, and at the same time be as severe as he likes with the first-class player.  The more frequently he stamps on the mediocre shot of the latter, so much the better, provided that he does not become vindictive.”

15.   “In designing the bunkering of a course the object should be to catch the bad or mediocre shot of the good player and punish the long-handicap man for bad strokes less than the former.”

16.   “There must always be a certain amount of conflict between the various classes of players.  In the one case the ripe veteran must be occasionally sacrificed…and, on the other hand, the committee may occasionally have no pity for the slashing young player of twenty or so, and provide him with a pitfall when he hits an extra long one under rather abnormal conditions.  We have to accept this if we are to have interesting approach play for the vast majority of players under normal conditions.”

17.   “If we are ambitious in trying to provide opportunities for testing the abilities of the real artist in approach play…we shall probably find that we need further materials than bunkers and hazards of the ordinary description.  If we had to depend alone upon them, the course would be either too easy for the championship player or too hard for the ordinary one.  There are two classes of difficulties which are most useful for our purpose—plateau greens and ‘hummocky’ ground.  The vast majority of links need both badly.  A narrow plateau for a green, or a few hummocks in front of one, will very likely cause just as much trouble and amusement to a player as a gaping chasm stretching right across the course.”

18.   “Undulations and hummocks are of great value ‘through the green,’ as they provide difficult stances and lies, without which no golf course can be said to be quite perfect….[W]hat we want to do, among other things, is to extract the very best golf from a man, and nothing does this so much as difficult lies and difficult stances.”

19.   “[Plant] judiciously off the course irregular clumps of whins, or broom, or rough grasses, or possibly small birch trees and Scotch firs. If we have to make bunkers – and no doubt they will be necessary – we can in great measure conceal their artificiality, and in any event we need not make them of a certain stereotyped pattern….[And] if we have all our margins cut so as to give the impression of the use of the measuring rod and garden line, we shall have a course which will satisfy only the strictly golfing portion of a man’s nature, and deprive him of considerable pleasure from playing the game amidst pleasing surroundings.”

20.   “Eighteen flat greens are to me an abomination…on the other hand, two or three examples of the flat green are an advantage.”


Colt’s “Principles” of Golf Architecture: 1906
These come from an essay Colt contributed to Golf Greens and Green-Keeping.

1.   “The sites of the putting greens will be determined, to a great extent, by the natural features of the course.”

2.   “Blind shots should be avoided wherever possible.  This more especially applies to blind approach shots and to blind short holes.”

3.   “It is now urged that the compulsory carry for the second shot be dropped altogether.  This does not advocate that there should be no hazards for second shots, but only that a route round them should be provided…In laying out the holes, first-class golf must, no doubt, be the primary consideration, but if you value the peace of mind of the Green Committee, have a regard for the long handicap player.”

4.   There is “great value of bunkers cut close up to the holes.  A bunker stretching right across the course should always be avoided, and, unless there are natural hazards, ‘pot’ bunkers are preferable to others.”

5.   “In selecting a site for a putting green, if there is a choice of one facing due south or due north, use discretion in the selection.”

6.   “Perfectly flat putting is uninteresting, but greens of a very undulating nature are not easy to keep in good order, as the grass growing on the banks is more difficult to feed, and, of course, such greens afford fewer positions for the holes, and ought, therefore, to be proportionately larger.  Any sharp banks or hills will need to be modified, otherwise there will be some impossible putts.”

7.   “It is, no doubt, the best plan to make as few [artificial hazards] as possible until the links have been played over for at least six months.  Then nick out the proposed sites and play for a further three months.”

8.   “If possible, use turf on heath land, or turves cut from the heather, for the sides of the bunkers, and not the refuse from the nearest railway station in the shape of old sleepers. If the face of a bunker needs raising it is advisable to avoid placing a grass bank or mound on the top, but in its place insert or slip, so to speak, soil between the turf and existing soil.  Of course the turf will have to be first removed and afterwards replaced upon the added soil, which will be sloped in a low gradient to the surrounding ground.  The face of the hazard will then appear more natural—in fact, as if it had been cut out of a mound.”


TEPaul

Re: Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2008, 11:45:40 AM »
"TEPaul,

Colt was bold with his designs. Bolder than most give him recognition for. He put greens in places others may have been more timid to do. He may have cajoled Crump to put the 5th green over the valley at PV like Marion Hollins did with Mackenzie with the 16th at Cypress."

Scott:

I don't think there is any question about that with Colt convincing Crump to put the 5th green where it is. I don't think there's much question that Crump just couldn't imagine a shot like that one. The reason I'm pretty sure about that is Crump had arrived at that present 5th tee in his routing before Colt first got to Pine Valley but his iterations for the 5th hole were somewhat numerous and also sort of bizarre as to where the next holes were to go. The really interesting thing is Crump already had what is now the 6th hole basically in place with one of his routing iterations but it was to be the 8th hole, not the 6th.

« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 11:47:48 AM by TEPaul »

Mark Pearce

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Re: Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2008, 12:21:58 PM »
Scott,

That sounds very exciting.  Where near Newcastle is that estate?  As a member of a club in Newcastle with a Colt designed course I look forward to seeing your course unfold.

I suspect Colt was mostly responsible for the 15th at Muirfield (I may, of course, be completely wrong on that) which whilst perhaps not the best hole on the course is IMHO a great bit of architecture.

Close to where you'll be working I love the 8th and 9th at Brancepeth Castle.  Which gives me another opportunity to plug the proposed GCA North East England get together in June, which will feature two Colt courses (Brancepeth and The Northumberland) and a Mackenzie (Seaton Carew).

Regards,

Mark
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Marty Bonnar

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Re: Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2008, 02:58:41 PM »
Humminah, humminah, humminah.
Is no-one else as jazzed as I am over this mouth-watering prospect???

Scott,
Eden Course, St Andrews:
Crossing par threes a la 5&8 utilising opposite sides of the same big dune. Great fun, endless options depending on wind.
Greensites. Current #1 (previously #3). 18 of them on any course would do me. Maybe too much for some, so I'll happily compromise on maybe 9 or 10.
Use of old walls and field boundaries in formation of hazards. GENIUS!
Diagonal bunkering schemas. Somewhat emasculated on the Eden prob due to maint practices (or lack therof). Any reference to these will go down well with the Coltites.

Pine Valley:
ANYTHING that's provably Colt!!! ;)

Swinley Forest:
Use of natural features as hazards. Carries over heather. Routing.

I could go on....and on...and on...and on...

yours salivatingly,
FBD.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Scott Macpherson

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Re: Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2008, 03:35:16 PM »
Gents,

Thanks for your input since my last post. You are all obviously signed up members of the Colt Fan Club!
 
Tony,

Your instincts are good. The routing that we have submitted is 6850y, Par 71. Holes play in all directions of the compass. The hole sequence is 4,4,4 (short), 3 (long), 4,4 (mid-length, but downhill), 5 (short, up uphill), 4 (long) 3 = 35. Back nine= 5,4,3,4,3 (short, say 140y), 4 (shortish, but with a blind drive like 2nd at Swinley Forest), 4, 5, 4 (solid 418 yards from back tee).

We are looking to use the natural slopes of the site and move little dirt. Probably only about 40 bunkers. (I have a hole with Cross- bunkers all ready marked out!)

The tees are close to the previous greens, and in general, all walking is all downhill from the 10th green (the exception is the first half of the proposed 15th).

This is an old estate with lots of old trees (100-200 year old Oaks etc), Ha-Ha's, and even an ancient monument from the Roman period (the site is near the famous Hadrians Wall) which will add considerably to the walk for the golfers.

This will be a pay and play course and I am sure I can arrange a discount for GCA contributors! ;)

Mark B,

That is an impressive bit of writing thanks. I will study it later!


Mark P,

I think I alluded it to you on a different thread, but I would be interested to talk with you when you do your Tour of the North east, and I might be able to arrange a site visit for you group if you are interested?

The site is at the Close House Estate, just off the A69.


Martin,

I know the Eden very well. Definitely some interesting things there. You will be welcome to come and visit too.

For those interested, there are some details of the project at the following link; www.closehouse.com/golf and if anybody wants to write letters of support for the project, I am sure I can find the planning authorities postal address.... ;)

Meantime, thanks for all the interesting and supportive comments!

Scott Macpherson

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Re: Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2008, 03:37:22 PM »
Sorry,

The link is www.closehouse.co.uk/golf

s

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2008, 03:48:25 PM »
Ah thank you Scott and as the mood today is mutual backscratching, can I just say how generous and wise you are. :D


A Colt in an ancient Oak Park now where have I read about one of those?

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,27808.0.html

Of course Swinley and St Georges Hill were both heavily wooded to start with, and he cleared wide corridors there.


Mark I hope your event this summer is so successful you repeat it a year later, as I'd love to join in.

« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 04:07:38 PM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Stuart Hallett

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Re: Do you want to talk about Harry Colt's best holes?
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2008, 04:29:32 PM »
Hi Scott,

In my humble opinion, I'd say that Tony has a very good point about the routing. Triangular loops of 3 or 4 holes, flowing perfectly without the slightest hesitation. Not so sure on the 9th par 3, even though there are examples that exist.
We all seem to agree on bunkering & green sites but the general approach to earthworks is also interesting. The naturel feel to many of Colt's courses is due to the intelligent use of cut & fill. I would avoid moving big volumes of fill too far from the cut areas. The man made features always seem well integrated and logical, hollow bunkers entrances that start gently far enough away from the bunker to create plenty of fill for sprawling bunker mounding or raised greens on quarry type holes etc.
The other question I would ask is the size of machinery used for detailed shaping, too smooth to please the greenkeeper, won't give the right look, again, that's just my opinion.

Sounds like a very exciting project, If you need someone to hand finish bunkers, give me a shout ! Good luck

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